@LankyOgreBP as far I can tell, getting out of hidden deployment is the only good reason to declare illegal AROs. This is a very marginal use case. I have hard time believing that it would break the game. Look, I don’t really even care if illegal ARO declarations are FAQed away or if ambush camo deployment is fixed by allowing secret measurements. I simply want a ruleset that doesn’t leave room shady play. Is it too much to ask?
You mean declaring one illegal ARO per TO unit? That would add like 2 extra AROs per game on average, maybe less.
Right now... sadly it is. But the rules are getting some love recently... we will see I'm not sure if that's legal... i'd have to check it. However in the case it would, that declaration would also break TO camo state; so you'd get the order for your order pool in the next turn, but you'd lose the surprise attack and protection of marker state... it doesn't seem like an amazing trade.
The way that every thread we have these days seems to devolve into arguments over rules minutiae is starting to become very aggravating. Mass camo is a tactic that people will see and that is worth talking about in the practical sense of "this is what you might see, these are ways to talk about it." Can we take rules discussions to the rules forum?
@Section9 yeah, i though it was obvious that you measure ZoC from either mine or minelayer. The real loser with this method is ambuscamo minelayer like Strelok: You first measure that ambush camo is in ZoC. Then you measure that mine is in ZoC —> observant opponent now knows which of the camo markers in Strelok, since you don’t measure distance between ambush camo and mine :). But this thread has been informative. In Ariadna, mass camo means mass Chasseurs, because Chasseurs are one of the best camo troops in the game thanks to low point cost and 6th sense. Someone mentioned that mass camo was also possible in Combined Army. Is there another specific troop profile like Chasseur?
Shrouded are good, but while CA lists can have a decent number of camo troops they still can't do proper "spam." Nomads/Bakunin can do camo spam pretty well too.
@Tanan I think you are still being too limited. Chasseurs are not the only good Camo in Ariadna. The entire point of mass camo or camo spam is giving your opponent too many choices. When I deploy first, there isn't enough info to counter deploy. During my opponents first turn, my models in camo pretty much hide everything and make him burn orders. It's about obfuscation.
@LankyOgreBP I agree, Chasseurs aren’t the only good camo option in Ariadna. Can we also agree that that the Chasseurs are significantly better than similarly costed camo options in Ariadna? You probably would take Chasseurs even if you don’t play mass camo.
I would never leave my home without full AVA on Streloks. IMO some of the best camo units in the game. If you decide to play that way with measuring you can always either do not use the minelayer profile (there are plenty good profiles) or simply not deploy the ambush camo marker. The enemy still has no idea if a marker is a mine, a strelok or just an ambush marker.
Appropriately, the best Strelok profile is not available in vanilla and the second best (as in number 1 and number 2 that I don't want to face) comes with heavy extra SWC penalty, but what's left is still good. Never leave home without at least one Spetznaz Scout with an SWC weapon - that'll give ya both two camo markers per Scout, and fill the role of long range fire suppression. Curiously, and probably luckily, Ariadna hasn't got an equivalent of Hunzakuts, but Foxtrots are only slightly more expensive and generate orders for others to use unlike Hunzakuts. It'll be interesting to see what Khanate does in terms of Hunzakuts, as it seems they will be native there.
Played two heavy camo list in 2 tournaments (3/5 rounds). It's not the usual Ariadna camo list but it was fun to play. You are missing durable hard hitters some times, but you have many options for taking troops. Liste A ────────────────────────────────────────────────── GROUP 1 9 1 1 VASSILY Lieutenant (Forward Observer) T2 Sniper, D-Charges / Heavy Pistol, Knife. (1 | 35) VETERAN KAZAK (X Visor) T2 Rifle, Light Flamethrower / Heavy Pistol, Knife. (0 | 38) SPETSNAZ (CH: Ambush Camouflage) HMG / Pistol, CCW, Knife. (1.5 | 38) FOXTROT (Forward Observer) Rifle, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 18) FOXTROT (Forward Observer) Rifle, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 18) VOLUNTEER Chain Rifle, Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 6) VOLUNTEER Chain Rifle, Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 6) UXÍA McNEILL (Covert Action) (CH: Limited Camouflage, Superior Infiltration, Specialist Operative) Boarding Shotgun, D-Charges, Smoke Grenades / 2 Assault Pistols, AP CCW, Knife. (0 | 27) STRELOK (Forward Observer) Boarding Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 20) IRMANDINHO Chain Rifle, D-Charges, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, AP CCW. (0 | 8) GROUP 2 3 2 1 TANKHUNTER (Chain of Command) AP Rifle, Adhesive Launcher, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (1 | 30) CHASSEUR (Minelayer) Rifle, Light Flamethrower, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 20) CHASSEUR (Minelayer) Rifle, Light Flamethrower, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 20) LIBERTO Submachine Gun, Chain-colt, D.E.P. / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 8) IRMANDINHO Chain Rifle, D-Charges, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, AP CCW. (0 | 8) 4.5 SWC | 300 Points Open in Infinity Army
Did someone try the limited infiltration volunteer/metro for some more camo spam ? Ariadna ────────────────────────────────────────────────── 4 VOLUNTEER (CH: Limited Camouflage, Inferior Infiltration) Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 11) MÉTRO (CH: Limited Camouflage, Inferior Infiltration) Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 11) MÉTRO (CH: Limited Camouflage, Inferior Infiltration) Rifle, D.E.P. / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 12) VOLUNTEER (CH: Limited Camouflage, Inferior Infiltration) Light Shotgun, Light Grenade Launcher / Pistol, Knife. (1 | 13) 1.5 SWC | 47 Points Open in Infinity Army I always thought this could be fun (with Uxia added in the mix to have a real threat) but never tried it
No, cause i always use the Volunteer are order monkey and for 12 points, you will get a Hardcase, who brings 2 camo token with him. And you need your tools for missions, attacking too, therefore, mostly you don't have the points for such an amount of camo
Of course. Chasseurs are awesome and serve a great role in Ariadna. Sixth sense on a camo marker is AMAZING. I do usually bring one or two if I'm playing Vanilla. But, they don't win games alone. They serve a very real purpose, but only as support. Depending on what you need, the 19 point bsg foxtrot or the 20 point FO/bsg strelok could be more useful. Hardcases are significantly cheaper and can be great harassers. The SAS can be an active turn assassin for a point or two more. It just depends. Overall, Camo has two areas of benefit. First, mechanics. almost permanent -3 MOD in F2F rolls, have to discover to even attack the model, private information coverage on the entire profile surprise shot stealth Secondly, psychological unknown threat vectors mines Ambush Camo markers The psychological area of benefits from camo depends a lot on your personal playstyle and the playing history of your opponent. If your opponent has only ever seen skirmishers with rifles as camo markers, then they may assume that all camo markers are hiding similar profiles. This may lead to them dismissing camo markers as irrelevant which could allow you to surprise with SWC options or mines. On the other hand, it means that your foxtrots and streloks might get taken down pretty easily, since your opponent may commonly bring the right tool to go against those threats. Alternatively, if you have popped a tankhunter missile launcher out of camo to wreck a TAG or surprised someone with Pavel, they may treat camo markers much more cautiously, allowing you to control the engagement and dictate movement around the table. Overall though, not knowing what models are on the table or what could happen can be an extremely potent advantage if you can capitalize on it.
Still doesn't mean you cannot measure range from the Ambush Camo marker, so that the mine is within ZOC of both Strelok's marker and Ambush Camo marker.
Mines and emauler. To ariadna, the fact that we know have emauler minelayer add a very nice psychological threat : HI and TAG can easyly tank a mine, but they won't risk tanking an emauler. It force HI/TAG rambo to be much more cautious around ariadna camo marker (or ending up Imm 2/Isolated midfield).
I'm not sure if you undertstood what I meant. Let me elaborate. 1. Declare that you deploying "slot 1 trooper" (Trooper 1 slot contains a Strelok that has minelayer and ambush camo skills) 2. Declare positions of all slot 1 markers and roll any PH checks (not required in this case) (the content of camo markers is a private information and the deploying player selects --> camo marker 1: Ambush camo, camo marker 2: Strelok, camo marker 3: mine 3. Deploy the markers 4. Measure the distance between 1 --> 2 (or 2-->1) and 2 --> 3 (or 3-->2). Assuming that the distances are equal or less than 8", markers 1 and 3 stay of the table. Because there is only one ambush camo+minelayer in the faction, the opponent knows that camo marker 2 is Strelok minelayer and that 1 & 3 can't be a Strelok because distance wasnt measured between markers 1--> 3.
@LankyOgreBP I agree with everything you said. My biggest problem with camo troopers is that even during active turns, they struggle against basic (not to mention MSV buffed) link teams because of MOD, burst and immunity to surprise shot. A well placed 5 man core team is a solid counter to camo spam.
Unless you use a skill that needs a roll (infiltration in the opponent half, impersonation in the opponent ZD), you don't need to declare anything before deploying your trooper. The only thing the rule ask you to do to deploy your minelayer strelok is : 1 : Deploy all 3 camo marker 2 : Perform a coherency check if you want to (not an obligation because the rule says "can" and not "must") You have lot of cheap camoed troop and lot of infiltrator with mine. If you really want a camo troop to go down, move close with a foxtrot/strelok/chasseur..., put down a mine (while staying out of LoF) then shoot it with spetsnaz. Your opponent will have to choose between opposing the spetsnaz attack or tanking the mine. Most LI/MI fireteam ARO piece will die. Once the main ARO piece is gone, most defensive fireteam will be useless in ARO. Against a more mobile FT (knight...), you have plenty of template that can make their life hell (chasseur with flammer, shotgun on strelok/hardcase/uxia) or you can even sacrifice 1 or 2 highlander to break the FT 5 men FT are a pain to camo but they are not unbeatable
