I am generally curios how it all works out in a wider community, how many people use models which are unable to stack mods apart from range/cover, and even more so - what is the reasoning for taking those units for you? With profiles of O-12 units from Operation Wildfire reveald, I am kinda disappoined with Gamma Unit. It looks very cool and I like the model design a lot, but the profile just does not work for me. Let me explain my logic: because it gives statistical advantage in the in-game interactions between models, whenever possible, I use units that can either get a lot of positive mods to their stat, a lot of negative mods to an opposing model's stats, or even better if I can do both. Also the unit that can ignore those mod stacking are good to, like SSL2 for surprise attacks or MSV for camo and etc, but generally there are ot as much of those in the lists. I play vanilla CA, and honestly this fixation on btinging only units that stack mods kinda limits my list building, and I geniuenly want tp find some use for those, but just bringing anything with mimetism/camo/TO/ODD or at least MSV2+ feels just so much more reliable. for example, Daturazi with chain rifles are an absolute no-brainer to me, if the table is not an absolute shooting gallery for snipers I can manage moving 4" and throwing smoke with relative ease, they are harder to be shot at with mimetism, and generally good at winning FTF's as far as ARO use goes - either throw smoke, normal grenade, dodge away, or chain rifle if the trade is worth it. on the other hand, I don't feel like krakots are providing enough bang for their buck, either with 2 chain rifles or SMG's, sure they have FDL1 and metachemistry, but they are so mush easier to kill and even their ability to berserk with chest mines is not as attractive now when we have thaighas which can do almost the same for just 6 points and are kind of easier to get into CC, sure rollong 2 normal roll dice with shock ammo dam13 on 30's is cool and all, but 1 dice on 27 with dam13 DA will do just about the same and for cheaper. As for units without mod stacking which I commonly use - those are the units which have a combination of low cost and/or a vital support role, or those which for some reason are not intended to be exposed to opponent's attacks. a couple examples are Kurgat engineer, whivh is cheap as far as CA specialists go, generally gonna be hiding someplace safe, and also packs a shotgun and mines so can do damage at close range if needed, and Ikadrons, whuch are again dirt-cheap and go with decent aro packgage of WIP13 flashpulse and double flamers with a 6-2 move for surprise rushing link teams around corners. And as examples which I struggle to fit in my lists are morat HI and TAG, though new profiles for them have some interresting combinations of skills. Also some examples from other factions which are common picks in my expirience - Squalo HGL, because you don't need stacking mods if they can't shoot back, Su-jian, beacause 2STR with NVI, a whole lot of weapons and a LOT of mobility with 8-2 move Climb+ is just that good, and Proxy MK5 FO, beacause a lot of tools for a price of fusilier, though in my opinion MK1 with mimetism is a lot more useful, tough this sentiment is not widely shared as far as I'm aware, and you can take both. To sum up - I find it really hard to not use models which stack mods effectively and am really interrested to find out if the statistical difference between mod-stacking and fair and square stats+tools is really as big as it feels, or units without mod stacking are more viable than I think they are. P.S. hot take: FAT2's impact on balance is overrater, because when you're not rolling 1's that unit is no different than just having FAT1, and it is much easier to counter than conventional mod stacking in a lot of ways.
6 ARM, 2W and NWI is really, really tough. I can win the FtF roll against him with a combi rifle Malignos all day, but I won't actually get shit done.
We tend to think of ARM as a fairly poor stat, until you combine it multiple Wounds and pretty high base stats. You try and take out a unit like that with a Chain Rifle, and it could take you all game once you crunch the numbers for Dodge and ARM saves. These types of units may lag behind from a pure dice calculator perspective, but that doesn't stop them from making a very strong impact in other ways. If you need to survive on a center objective, and the scenario hinges around it, you might be really happy giving up ODD or TO, in exchange for shrugging off light hits.
I mean, maybe - winning the FtF roll is part of it, but your chance of inflicting a wound can be very low. And if your chance of inflicting a wound is low enough, then it just becomes a waste of orders, and they might get lucky and score a hit on your TO CAMO/ODD/MSVL2/WTFBBQ unit. Even if they only have a 15% chance of hurting you back, if you're dealing less than a wound per order that gets dicey. In the end, defenses are multiplicative in utility - TO Camo is waaay scarier on a Swiss Guard than a 1 ARM skirmisher (setting aside the positioning advantage), and high ARM is better on units with multiple wounds and/or vision modifiers. And, as in this case and the Mowang and Daiyokai, NWI is better on units with 2W and decent Arm values, since it all adds up to make a unit that's extremely difficult to take out for its point value.
I mean, I sometimes stack mods --- mostly an Intruder --- but I usually do not have the option. My workhorse units tend to be Tomcats and Hellcats, which only have range and cover to play with (assuming I am not shooting them in the back, because I would shoot you in the back!). When they fail, I am probably using Jaguars, or REMs.
With regards to the Gamma unit specifically, the extra Burst provided by Full Auto L1 is worth just a little less than mimetism in most rolls. It's worth more if you have a higher modified BS than the thing you're shooting at, and less if you have a lower modified BS. In either case, 2W, NWI, B5, and BS14 mean that you really don't have to care, it's a sledgehammer you can throw against plenty of stuff, and just rely on the fact that you have 3 effective wounds w/ ARM6 to shrug off any damage.
Ideally you want to have a few pieces in your list that can dominate (or at least reliably win) face to face BS attacks, there are a lot of ways do to that, models with innate +/- mods are just one way to do that. I regularly take atalanta in aleph, she has no mods, but her base BS of 17 and MSV 2 go a long way towards winning rolls, especially when paird with massaging range an cover. I rarely feel the need to stack MSV with smoke. I reguarly take MK 4 HRL post humans, their high arm, dirt cheap, expensible nature, with a impact template, make them really good road blocks. I don't typically use them on offense, but they can really be an immoveable object in a way the an MK 2 might not. (not to mention the template can really mess with inative troops or limit links movement). I regularly take SWAST with a redfury, they are a decent backup hitter (not an amzing plan A like a Kriza), are durable, can secure your deployment zone, and have lots of utility with the pulzar and MA/Stealth. They are probably one of nomad's best options for a data tracker in many missions. I've also taken lone hollowmen in vanilla for the utility they bring, a 6-2 spitfire with super jump can get some really advantagous shots from unexpected angles. In addition mods are only one part of the winning the face to face spectrum, base stats and burst are also part of that equation. Having a dude start a mod step or nearly so above its target can sometimes be a really big deal, as well as addtional burst from full auto 1. TDLR I think you're selling Gamma units short.
I have gotten complaints from my HRL Mk4 proxy a lot, because of how frigging tough she is as an ARO piece. And she is ARM5, PH14, BS13. What you don't shoot back, you dodge. And what enters... in cover is +3 to ARM, so ARM 8 (9 for this o-12 unit), that means a DMG15 sniper rifle needs a 7 or less in your dice to cause a wound. This O-12 unit requires a 6 or less to get wounded... so not really bad. Now, of course, the cost is another thing entirely.
Answering the question is difficult, I'll regularly take a few models that natively stack mods, but I don't fill out an entire list with them, you're just asking to be deployable or DTW'd off the table.
And you still need orders for those mod-stackers, preferably cheap orders. Cheerleaders are not supposed to participate in the main fight, so they don't need those mods.
I'd say it's heavily faction and meta dependant. Some factions barely have any modifiers to play with (ISS), others use it in droves (steel phalanx, ariadna), and if your meta uses a lots of perimeters, deployables, DTW and MSV in defense your ODD or TO camo won't be as usefull.
It depends a lot. Gamma is a really hard to remove model that will perform well in most scenarios; models with MSV2 will be better versus ODD/TO/CAMO but you have other models in the army to deal with those. He has his stenghts, the BS14 is very good, and with FA1 it's like he is in a Haris in active turn with that +1 B; plus good weaponry. His defensive stats are very good: ARM6/BTS6 PH14 NWI is outstanding; put him in cover and you have a pain in the ass model to deal with for your adversary. Without AP a combi will damage him if he rolls 1-4, an HMG 1-6. Even losing some FTF rolls he is very solid. Mods are very good, but there is life without them.
Burst is king, mod stacking is king of kings This is why I fell off ISS very hard - once smoke shooting is not effective outside of choosing targets (vs fireteams) or actively detrimental (vs Kamau) you realize that there are only two units in that sectorial that can win firefights and both are on a loan from Aleph. yikes It is also why simple TAGs get their bad name. What good is your robo fatman when it cant reliably win in a fight against a line of flash pulses? Waste a turn tanking shots in your face and not killing anything, what a pleasure. Gamma, like Ratnik before, is just a high cost brick - if there is going to be a Swiss Guard analogue, big man wont be necessary outside of Datatracker missions (and even there, for example, TAK prefers the Vet to Ratnik most of the time).
Well you do mention them. Dont forget that range, cover, and burst, are among the strongest mods you can stack - especially the range penalty of your opponent. And the main advantage the active player has over his opponent is that he can chose them. ODD or CH:TO are very strong, but so is hitting burst 3-4 at +3 range vs -3/-6 range. You may want to stack both vision and range mods, but most of the time, you don't need to stack that much. Plus, what would you do if your opponent can negate some of your mods ? This is where strong, sturdy troops excels.
Where did this come from? ISS is still a top tier sectorial in terms of competitiveness. The Hsien is one of the only units edged to win a gunfight with a Kamau in +3 ranges with no other mods for example.
Hsien is way too expensive and losing him hits hard I have never managed to win a ftf with him against a basic fireteam, I dont believe he can ever win in a firefight with a BS13 model in one.
I rarely focus on "mod stacking", probably to my detriment. Never really heard the term until we had an overseas player come and crush our meta. At a sort of core level I'm disappointed that Infinity comes down to things like smoke visor shenanigans, link team buffs, and the royal trio of visual mods, camo state and warbands.
Sounds like a personal problem. The Hsien's a great unit. On a similar topic, modifying Burst is a nice way to tackle fireteams. Nimbus Grenades have become much more useful. The Hsien would agree with this.
