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Fatality 2 with B5...

Discussion in '[Archived]: N3 Rules' started by Zewrath, Mar 27, 2019.

  1. tox

    tox SorriBarai
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    Isn't the game based on ruling the odds in YOUR favor? Then, again, why the hell are you trying to beat fire with fire?

    PLAY the game, don't put your models in line like a Bloodbowl game and call it for a bad design when all of them die in the first (opponent) player turn.

    The skill is strong? Yes. Could it be costed 5 points more? Maybe. Does it kill the game? Only if you do not play it.
     
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  2. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Why would I insult your meta or tell you to git gud? I have never done such a thing to anyone on the forums and am frequently told in other words to git gud myself.

    The strawman that tox is drawing up through his way of arguing is that a unit like Tarik or Sheskin are fine and balanced because they can be defeated without taking into account costs or what a high crit rate does to the probability curves, instead opting to just look at the average. The argument against it is that a) Tarik and Sheskin are excessively good for their cost and b) the very high crit potential makes the games potentially not very fun or engaging. Neither of these two arguments are actually met or refuted.

    I'm not going to make assumptions about what tone you meant to take or what message you actually tried to convey, but it didn't come across as being particularly civil and might need an extra pass before hitting reply next time.

    Edit: HAH! And there we go, "git gud" from Tox, right on cue!
     
    #442 Mahtamori, Jul 2, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2019
  3. Koni

    Koni BanHammer
    CB Staff

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    Ok guys.

    Keep it civil from this point on. Every opinion must be respected, even if you don't see a problem here or for you is very problematic. HellLois has replied the page before. So now you have two options, wait for it, or keep discussing but in a more politeness way.


    Thank you for your collaboration.
     
  4. Ogid

    Ogid Well-Known Member

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    The skill is powerful and have a big impact in both winning the FtF roll (even when stacked against you) and in dealing damage (crits ignoring ARM/BTS rolls) and it's also an ability few armies have so it's understandable the outrage.
    Also AROs are a big part of this game, your best move shouldn't be hiding your head and give up the full map to your enemy because they have a FAT2 model.
    I don't know how big the issue but let's just have patience.
     
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  5. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    I don't honestly see this as a problem providing the price of the model is so high that the army you're giving up control to isn't very strong.

    The Avatar has kind of this effect, and that one eats more than one third of your force fielding it. You can still attempt to hinder it with hacking, of course, which is a great mitigating factor.
     
  6. Ogid

    Ogid Well-Known Member

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    The problem is that we are talking about models that may benefice from links bonuses and that cost a bit more than 1/3 of the cost of the Avatar...
     
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  7. Ayadan

    Ayadan Knight of the TAG Order

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    No, because, unlike ODD, you can't play with it. You can use ODD to put down to -12 BS your opponent's trooper so it can't replicate and just can dodge, it lowers the chance of success of your opponent shooting at you and request a specific type of weapons/equipments/situations to be ignored. FatL2, on the contrary, is pure randomness. If they so wanted to double the critical possibilities while making this skill more usefull, they could have said it gives a +1 MOD to your non natural critical rolls. So, you're still doubling your crit chances and have a real use outside of that.
    I saw someone talking about ignoring Saturation zone, that's an excellent idea. This skill could have forced your opponent to suffer one additional hit if you scored at least one hit with a non DTW or throwable weapon (so splitting burst and using low B weapons would have some use on such trooper). There are a lot of way to make a skill deadly without something as frustrating as crit fishing.
     
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  8. siri

    siri Well-Known Member

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    IMHO just removing the crit part solves the problem.
    In 1 you always hits.

    So.... do your save.
     
  9. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    Full Auto L2 is an unavoidable -3 to-hit that does not stack with Suppression Fire. What's wrong with that?

    I agree that Fatality L2 is a bad mechanic in general, your best option for dealing with a Hac Tao/Swiss HMG or linked Kamau should not be to crit fish in your -9 to -12 range bands! The reason most of my friends liked Infinity was that you needed to think tactically, and there's no tactics in Fatality L2.

    Total Immunity now does what the skill name says. Problem is, I think that's a bit too much protection, at least for anything that doesn't have any Vulnerabilities.


    Well, most units shouldn't die to a B5 Spitfire in -9 range. But they will die to Tariq/Khawarij Spitfire/Sheskin.

    And the bold part is exactly the problem with Fatality L2. No tactics required, no working into +3 range, just throw dice and get crits.


    Exactly.


    The worst part is that you can shoot at -9 for Tariq/Khawrij or even -12 for Sheskin and still get that 41% chance of a Crit. There's no thought required, no tactics. Oh, look, you're hitting on 4s or even 2s, and you're likely to win that firefight. That is utterly against what this game was about.


    If you remove Crits, a Jotum in cover is immune to rifle fire. I don't think that is a good idea from a balance POV.
     
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  10. Ogid

    Ogid Well-Known Member

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    I think he is talking about the crits that trigger thanks to FAT2 (only the 1), not just deleting the critical mechanic. It the same I proposed before:

     
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  11. Alphz

    Alphz Kuang Shi Vet. Retired.

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    Why they didn't make Fatality just add +1 or +2 to dice rolls would have been a powerful buff without adding in more frikken crits into the game.
     
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  12. LaughinGod

    LaughinGod Well-Known Member
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    If crits were doing +3DAM for example ( or +6 or whatever ) instead of auto wound, then Jotum wouldn't be immune. And as you correctly stated above that fishing for crits is not a way to deal with Swiss HMG/Hac Tao, same applies to wounding a Jotum. Bring things that counter high ARM ( which is overpriced ) and blow it up. Only tactically challenged players will cry how changing crits from autowound to something else would make high ARM overpowered ( and sadly, some of them are in the balance team ). This is really poor argument. Not to mention Jotum does not exist on the table, anywhere. When was the last time someone played Jotum list with any success in ITS ? 2014 ? And besides him, no one has that much armor, so rifle can wound literally every unit in the game, except 1. Is this really the reason to keep crit as it is ?
    Also, my favorite quote from CB, regarding SymbioMates change :
    SymbioMate: This piece of equipment has been redesigned to be more in line with how the rules work in N3, which always allows a player to have a roll associated with an action - making sure that there is a risk associated with the reward of a successful roll. SymbioMates are now a piece of Obligatory Equipment with only one use, and that gives ARM 9, BTS 9, and Total Immunity. ( emphasis mine )
    Same logic should be applied to crits. Allow players a roll, give them risk vs reward. Stop making crits autowound.
     
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  13. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    I don't think that ever made it into the FAQ; I think it *does* stack with SF mode.

    But it begs the question as to why they didn't just give the trooper with FA L2 a higher BS. "Is good at winning gunfights" is a skill the game already enumerates with the BS stat.

    Yup, the game should reward you for trying to outmaneuver your opponent, not just yoloing it in.

    Very much so. It's also a fluff fail, since Flash ammo was supposed to be used, in fluff, to deal with Dogfaces. That's why Loup Garous had flash grenades, back when Total Immunity made the user immune to Stun Ammo. Then they got changed to Stun, when Total Immunity didn't protect against Stun ammo, and then Total Immunity got changed to make the bearer immune to non-lethal ammo, period. And that's something that should be looked at, and has very questionable balance implications to things like Karakuris.
     
  14. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    This is actually really interesting. I'm not 100% certain what it does to the probability curves in a FTF though.
     
  15. Alphz

    Alphz Kuang Shi Vet. Retired.

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    It'd need some words around results 14,15,16 to add a success but not just create double crits in a different way. But it would remove "1" as a success for the opponent.

    So in rough maths terms, 2 extra 'successes' for the Fat model. ~10% improvement?

    The interaction at low numbers would give it some cool applications on snipers. Again the place a skill like FAT2 seemed more natural on.
     
  16. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    I'm not certain that +10% is actually correct from a stats POV. But I get your logic: it narrows your opponent's success space while increasing your own. Which is why I think it's interesting.

    Re: effect on low numbers. That's the thing: If FAT2 was on snipers nobody would care even as it is. It would actually be interesting on low burst weapons. Imagine an unlinkable Merc Cateran character with FAT2 with a T2 Sniper Rifle? That'd be VERY scary, but really interesting because it wouldn't be at all reliable enough to 'just fish for crits'.

    Equally if Tarik had FTO on his Rifle+LSG profile and Sheskin just couldn't link they're still be seriously good solo pieces (and it'd still be annoying) but the odds wouldn't be pushed across the line into 'fishing for crits' is a viable tactic in a lot of situations.

    I don't like the interaction at B4 or less but I think it's oppressive at B5. In a large part because of how it makes these profiles dominate their factions list building.
     
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  17. siri

    siri Well-Known Member

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    Ok. But what is wrong with the Jotum in cover be immune to normal rifle? If they are immune to the units with fatality level 2 ,

    Exactly this. I just think we should remove the crit from the "1" hit, transforming it in a hit.
    Not the crit mechanica !
     
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  18. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    It's already a hit. The better way to achieve that is @Alphz's suggestion of have FAT2 add +1 to the roll.
     
  19. Sabin76

    Sabin76 Well-Known Member

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    What would adding +3 DAM (or +2 stacking with FAT1) do to the curve (unfortunately, the dice calculator doesn't let you play with damage numbers so much)? Not only would it make the "Jotum in cover" not immune to such fire (albeit with a rather low armor failure rate), but it would make sense in terms of the skill. It seems like it's also a small enough buff to make it more in line with its cost (i.e. free).
     
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  20. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    I really like where you're going with this.

    The fact that Fatality L2 is basically free is really irksome. I wish, like, my Samaritan Spitifire could get that shit for free. But no, my sectorial of choice doesn't get random goodies handed out from on high like that.
     
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