Total immunity and normal ammo

Correct.
@Ogid you tend to be constructive and offer ways of trying to make sense of things when you spot something that's contradictory, I did not direct my exasperation at you.

 

Yes, those lovely Karakuri fembots are effectively ARM6.

 

Hahahahahahaha

Edit: in hindsight this response wasn't clear, I was laughing at the notion that the requirements section explains what circumstances the rule applies. I mean it's reasonable to expect that, but having dealt with the hidden requirements of certain skills for a while now it amuses me.

 

The problem is skills and actions in Infinity do not have a base function. They do not have a function above and outside their list of effects. That's not normal. It is necessary to combine one skills individual effects for something to actually happen in this game.

Skills like Protheion have an effect that causes a wound for every failed BTS roll. Since the skill has no basic function, there are no rolls to make and possibly fail. We must combine that effect with its other bullet points in order for the skill to function.

Dodge does nothing on it's own. The first bullet simply tells us we can make a FTF roll but has no instructions on how to do it. If you applied that bullet point on it's own, nothing would happen. The second bullet then tells us how to make a roll but not what happens if successful. Again, on it's own it will do nothing. We must combine a skills list of effects for something to actually take place within the game. One big problem combining the effects in this way is we don't know when certain effects are conditional on other effects.

If we treat the second bullet of Total Immunity as an independent and self functioning rule, we have to treat other skill effects the same way. This unfortunately breaks the game.

For TI to function as others here are stating it would need to be written much differently.

 

Ty @Mahtamori, I appreciate it.

Pretty much, yeah. However the effect may also apply their own requisites; in this case the conditionals. Less requirements would lead to more conditionals in the effects.

For example, this rule could also be written like this without altering its effects:

 

@TheRedZealot I'm not sure my last post answered your question. I'm going to break this down using Total Immunity.

You are correct that Total Immunity has no basic requirements outside it's list of effects. And you're correct that we should apply the relevant effects to all hits or even actions our trooper takes. The problem is when we try to apply TI's second effect. The second effect does not actually tell us when we get to choose which attribute to roll. So how do we determine that?

The second effect relies on the situation from the previous effect. However, that previous effect also contains requirements. Posters here are arbitrarily deciding what requirements and situation they want to apply the second effect under. Their interpretation isn't backed by the rules as written.

 

I do like how Infinity ruleset is build, that characteristics you describe make it more complicated but also more powerful. Skills may do very different things so each one would only apply how it is described. For example, Super-Jump does nothing but altering the rules of the common skill Jump; however Sensor gives a second way to use Discover, some passive advantages plus access to an extra ability (Triangulated Fire) while AD or Infiltration are abilities that let the trooper deploy in a different way.

It's also important to try to read the whole rule. You cannot try to makes sense of every line, that's like picking the rules of other game, read an isolated line in the midle of a paragraph and say that line doesn't make any sense; the context is very important. Infinity is just written differently; using bullet points instead of commas, points and paragraphs. In the end is the same, so if in a point is talking about a FtF or a Wip roll; odds are that it's talking about something that is introduced before in that same skill and if a connector join 2 bullet points, then these 2 bullet points have something that need them to be parsed toguether.

 

The second point is joined by the "in addition" to the first one, so it should be parsed toguether, so they share the condition. It would be equivalent to this:

• If we go to the beach this weekend, you will swim in the sea.
• In addition, I'll buy you an ice cream!.

That would be equivalent to:

• If we go to the beach this weekend, you will swim in the sea and I'll buy you an ice cream!.

What does that mean? When does he get the Ice cream? Must he swim in the sea to get the Ice cream or those effect are independient?
To me that sounds as they will go the the beach and have a good day, but if for some reason he decided that he doesn't want to swim, he will get his ice cream anyway.

 

"Odds are" and "have something", are terrible ways to have to interpret rules. You don't even sound confident in explaining what means what, which is smart, because you can't do so with any certainty. Rules should not be subjective.

No set of rules or instructions needs to rely on context or the odds. Any rule that does, is terrible IMO.

That analogy isn't accurate. Try one more parallel to the original.

(condition) (specific criteria) (action to take)
In addition, (another action to take, which results in a different outcome dependent on when the action was taken)

This is why I used numbers because it illustrates the point extremely well. Mine can have clearly different results. Just like when we allow the choice of rolls in TI.

 

Going by how it is currently written on the wiki, how would you rather that it was written for RAW and/or RAI, Ginrei?

Edit: typo

 

Keep in mind I'm not a fan of the original wording. But as a quick rewrite focusing on structure.... For it to work on normal ammo as others insist:

TOTAL IMMUNITY - AUTOMATIC SKILL - Optional

Players can choose between making an ARM Roll or BTS Roll, choosing the most advantageous for them.​

REQUIREMENTS

• The owner of this Skill is forced to make any ARM or BTS Rolls.
• This Skill is not applied if the owner suffers a Hacking or Comms Attack.

ADDITIONAL EFFECTS

• The owner is immune to Special Ammunitions, treating those hits as Normal Ammunition.
• If affected by a weapon or Ammunition with the Non-Lethal Trait (see Infinity N3), owners of Total Immunity won't suffer its effects, so they won't make the ARM or BTS Roll, nor any corresponding Guts Roll.

***I'd prefer to order them so the requirements come before the skills basic effect, but it's not that important for this exercise.

From a structural point of view there is no debating how the individual rules interact. As long as the requirements are met, players always have the choice of which roll to make, unless otherwise stated. Individual effects function fine on their own under the umbrella of the rest of the rules. There is no more worrying whether I can choose to roll BTS against a combi rifle or DA ammo.

 

Don’t get me wrong, rules must be as clear as possible; I think we agree in that.

My point is that if that rule doesn’t refer to that FtF roll or WIP roll introduced before, then that rule is badly written. It’s not reasonable to expect that every single line would have a meaning by itself, some would be qualifying other lines; and that’s perfectly fine as long as an average reader can understand the reference. If the rule could be referring to 2 different WIP or FtF rolls, then it needs a clarification/rewrite.

That scheme isn’t accurate either, as I said before this is a conditional; so the effect is the second line but in this case it requires an extra one to tell us how to execute it.

(condition),(effect),(extra line clarifying the effect)
In addition, (extra effect)

Also there is no confusion in the order. You first have to know what kind of ammo hit you to know what you have to roll, in this case they just change the ammo (special ammo to normal ammo) so you know that you will always roll ARM. But then in the extra effect they say that you can choose between ARM and BTS. Also the order is correct, first you identify the ammo you have to use, then you may choose the attribute you will use to your save.

going back to my example, it would be like this:

• If we go to the beach this weekend, I’ll give you a treat, you will swim in the new pool.
• In addition, I'll buy you an ice cream!.

It’s the same, (condition, effect), but as the effect is not clear it requires an extra line to explain it. Then below an independent effect that would trigger under the same condition but independent of the first one. To match your reading it would be like this

• If we go to the beach this weekend, I’ll give you a treat, you will swim in the new pool.
• In addition, if you swim in the new pool, I'll buy you an ice cream.

Or in TI:

• When suffering a successful Attack—or being affected by any weapon or rule—that forces any ARM or BTS Rolls, the owner is immune to the special effects of the Special Ammunitions, treating them as Normal Ammunition.
• In addition; if the ammunition used was special, players can choose between making an ARM Roll or BTS Roll, choosing the most advantageous for them.

 

As it’s true the order of the 2 effect is predefined in TI, I’ll make a more perfect example.

• If we go to the beach this weekend, I’ll give you a special treat for being such a good son, you can go to swim to the new pool.
• In addition, I'll buy you an ice cream in that gas station in our way to home, you can choose the flavor you like the most.

This case is identical to the 2 first bullet points of the TI rule.

• (condition), (effect 1), (clarification of effect 1)
• (connector), (effect 2), (clarification of effect 2)

Just to help me to see your point, if these 2 post didn’t convince you. Could you elaborate the different possible readings of this rule?
Note: I’m aware the “is immune to the special effects of the Special Ammunitions, treating them as Normal Ammunition” could be misleading; but as it is confirmed, let’s settle that this refers to treating special ammos (who ask for a ARM/BTS roll) as normal ammo.

 

But the rule is already structured that way if you ignore the bullet points and read it like a paragraph of text. All you’ve done is change the reading order of the clauses make them take up more space on a page.

 

The rules are not already structured that way. To read them as one paragraph you are literally changing the structure and potentially the meaning. The distinction between an effect referring to the skill itself or the sentence before it will be shifted. Not only that, reading it as one paragraph doesn't eliminate the confusion at all. It only shifts it.

Stratuscloud state's last cancellation is argued to be pertaining to the entire skill itself. Putting it as the last line of a paragraph changes the meaning more towards referring to the sentence before it. Dodge is another example. I'm sure there are many others.

 

The context is important, no matter how the rules are written. To illustrate my point above, TI could be written in a more “standard” style like this:

As you can see the meaning is the same, but it’s much more uncomfortable to read and it requires extra verbose. For me it would be harder to go through all the rules if they would be written like that. I rather the rules as they are structured right now; however the bullet point doesn't mean they don't have any relation with each other.
Even written with bullet points, they are sentences that are colaboratin with each other to explain that rule, so they may refer to each other; and the order of them is also important (if you are going to refer to something, that something have to be introduced before the reference).

 

Agree so very much with this.
Tournaments often need to have strict time limits and finishing a game in 2 hours means spending 30 seconds reading through a text instead of finding a specific bullet point loses valuable time playing. Additionally, you don't have to be dyslexic to risk missing key information in a chunk of text.
I wished the bullet points were structured even more bullet pointy (hopefully this edit didn't mangle anything):
REQUIREMENTS

• The user is affected a successful Attack—or being affected by any weapon or rule—that forces any ARM or BTS Rolls.
• This Special Skill is not applied if the owner suffers a Hacking or Comms Attack.

EFFECTS

• The owner treats all Special Ammunition as Normal Ammunition
  
• The owner may choose the most advantageous of an ARM Roll or BTS Roll against attacks.
  
• The owner is immune to weapons or ammunition with the Non-Lethal trait that forces an ARM or BTS Roll, as well as any corresponding Guts Roll.

 

I don't believe that's accurate. If you look at your first condition and effect what relationship do they have without the further condition of being hit by special ammo? If you want to write it as (condition),(condition),(effect),(extra line clarifying the effect) fine. There is no functional difference to my argument.

In the actual situation we are discussing, where the added effect is placed in relation to those two conditions matters. Just because the sentence doesn't mention Special Ammo until the same line as the effect, does not mean the condition is not present.

Context can be used to help clarify poorly written rules. In that sense it can be important. But context is subjective. What you interpret the context to be is not going to be the same context everyone else sees.

A computer does not rely on context because it's a stupid hunk of metal. Bad coding aside, it follows a set of instructions that are impossible to deviate from. Rules for a game like Infinity should and can function the same way. They should never rely on context. So when you defend your argument with context, you're opening the door for other interpretations.

How they collaborate is subjective. Whether the last bullet for Stratuscloud state cancellation is pertaining to the sentence before it or the skill itself is subjective. It's subjective because the Infinity rules follow a combination of bullet point structure and paragraph structure written in bullet point format. A combination that doesn't follow any rules set forth in Infinity the game or real life. So interpreting them is entirely subjective. We guess based on the context we perceive. "In addition" being the perfect example.

Simply removing the bullets and putting everything into one long paragraph doesn't solve anything. The underlying problem of which effects function independently and which do not still exists. By changing the format you also potential change the meaning of those effects because you've removed the context a structure of bullet points provided.

 

I believe the OP's question was answered, so this thread should be closed, would you agree @psychoticstorm ?

 

Wait, is there some process for determining when to close threads I'm unaware of, can I see it?
Are all threads closed once an answer is given?
Who determines if the answer is correct?
What if the OP has further questions regarding that answer?
Can we continue to discuss other topics brought up as a result of this thread?
Can I expect this process to be applied to all threads equally?