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martial arts, i-khol, and shooting haplass targets.

Discussion in '[Archived]: N3 Rules' started by jackfrost, Feb 12, 2018.

  1. jackfrost

    jackfrost Active Member

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    so from our research we have come to the conclusion that the only requirement for applying martial arts negative mods to opponents is reaching CC, but not actually using CC when you get there. in the wiki under martial arts the only requirement is reaching CC and the bonuses and negative mods are based on what you do. for instance all positive bonuses only apply to CC skills but they don't say that the negative mods require you to use CC skills.

    so theoretically you could move into CC with someone and shotgun them. doing this would giving up any positive mods you could have had but you could still apply negative mods to your opponent.

    first, is this correct, is there something we are missing because the only requirements seem to be that you reach CC at some point.

    now next to the messy part. i-khol uses the same wording throughout but weirdly enough one of the examples in i-khol says this:

    "Beautiful Azra lures a Ninja on an Active Turn. He declares Move and CC against her. Once they come into base to base contact, if Azra reacts by declaring CC Attackor Dodge she will be able to implement her i-Kohl during the Face to Face Roll, but not if she declares a BS Attack."

    so now the exact same wording has an example that states a CC skill must be used in order to force the negative mod onto the target even though the requirements box only states:
    • Either in an Active or Reactive Turn, a trooper must reach or be in base to base contact with an enemy in order to be able to use this Special Skill.
    the requirements box for both skills (martial arts and i-khol) don't mention using a CC attack, but the i-khol example states you must use a CC attack while there is no such example in the martial arts page.

    I'd love some clarification on this :)
     
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  2. macfergusson

    macfergusson Van Zant is my spirit animal.

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    Like i-Kohl, the Martial Arts skill is labelled as a CC Special Skill, not just an Automatic Skill. You need to be using a CC-legal declaration to use Martial Arts.
     
  3. avanst

    avanst Member

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  4. macfergusson

    macfergusson Van Zant is my spirit animal.

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  5. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    And technically you don't even have to be in CC. If someone tries to engage you, you can CC attack them, and use MA or i-kohl or other CC skills.
     
  6. avanst

    avanst Member

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    Close Combat just says that you have to reach or be in base contact in the same order. It says nothing about what skill you have to use to activate it's bonuses.

    Reaching base contact and bs attacking them on the way in doesn't stop any of the requirements for these skills. You are in close combat and everything happens at the same time. All skill requirements are met. Including the entire link I posted before.

    I don't see any requirement to use A Close Combat Short Skill in martial arts or "cc special skill" tags.

    And that fact that you can shoot or cc attack and use your martial arts and i-kohl on a model trying to engage you (which doesn't actually put you into base contact until you win the face to face) builds on these skills being used regardless of whether you CC attack or not.
     
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  7. daboarder

    daboarder Force One Commander
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    so you can argue nuances of language for a translated game and probably get nowhere, OR you can take the word of hte experienced players and get on with the game and play as the global meta's do
     
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  8. borings

    borings Well-Known Member

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    so from the wiki as well, in the definition of Close Combat (linked from CC special skills):

    Close Combat (CC) encounters take place within the normal Order expenditure sequence and use the same types of Rolls as all other forms of combat in Infinity.

    CC plus Movement Sequence
    Close Combat typically takes place immediately after a Movement. This means the most common CC sequence is as follows:
    • An active trooper declares, using the first Short Skill of his Order, that he will Move into base to base contact with an enemy.
    • Said enemy declares an ARO, usually either BS Attack or CC Attack, but it might also be a Dodge (or Reset), a Hacking Program (if available), or any Special Skill usable in this situation.
    • The active trooper declares the second Short Skill of his Order, which might be any of the above mentioned: BS Attack, CC Attack, Dodge (or Reset), a Hacking Program (if available) or an eligible Special Skill.
    • Then, both the active trooper and the target in ARO make their Face to Face Rolls (unless one of the Skills used indicates otherwise).
    (bolded for emphasis)
    the wording here implies you can declare a BS attack during a CC encounter.

    so lets say a makaul moves into base to base with a ninja or whomever. the ninja declares CC attack as its ARO. the makaul declares a bs attack to shoot its pistol at the ninja and someone else. is the situation:
    a: the makaul is not engaged in cc because it declared a bs attack, and may not use i-kohl or martial arts. the ninja is engaged in CC because it declared CC attack and may use martial arts.
    b: they are both engaged in CC and may use any applicable CC special skills they may possess, as they are in base to base contact.
     
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  9. borings

    borings Well-Known Member

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    i think part of the prollem is that the page for CC Special Skills says this:

    "
    How to Read CC Charts
    Some CC Special Skills give a trooper a series of MODs and advantages that are displayed in Charts with the following elements:

    the attack, damage, and burst mod all explicitly call out they apply when the user is making a CC attack, but the opponent mod only lists making a face to face as a requirement. implying that you can apply negative mods when declaring other skills (which is true, they apply to dodge and engage at the very least).
     
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  10. Willen

    Willen Well-Known Member

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    We should link to the old forums, and CB should state this in a FAQ since the discussion is always the same, almost word for word.

    Bottomline is no, as said before. A CC Special Skill is one that activates when yoi declare a CC Attack. I-Khol wording makes this more clear than in MA, but the use is the same. It was ruled by CB in the old forum if I am not mistaken... need to find the link
     
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  11. avanst

    avanst Member

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    It's not about arguing a nuance. I have been playing this game for 3 years and the rules are commonly translated poorly. This however doesn't have a poor translation it isn't a rule. In fact all evidence says that you can use these automatic skills however, you only apply negatives to your opponent because all bonus say explicitly to your cc. Meanwhile the negatives attach to all face to face rolls.

    It fits the rules, it fits the narratives, and I don't understand why it could even be blamed on poor translation. Especially with a updatable wiki and digital rulebook.

    The fundamentals of the game are meeting the requirement of a skill when declaring their use. Arbitrarily saying "no" to something that meets all the requirements of the skill basically removes the construct of the games mechanics. It meets all skill and all "skill tags" requirements and procedures.

    Also if this "ruling" happens to be authenticated via a proper FAQ or Errata then that means you cannot use martial arts if you declare any skills except the Short Skill Close Combat Attack. So no using it for dodging or engaging. Only I-khol says it can be used.
     
    #11 avanst, Feb 13, 2018
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2018
  12. jackfrost

    jackfrost Active Member

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    honestly from everything presented here and everything I've read the only requirement for the activation of CC special skills is entering CC, being in CC or if someone uses engage on you.

    i-khol specifically says you have to use a CC attack while activating the ability in CC but only does so in the examples. I mean if they rule it another way then they need to update their rules because it doesn't make sense for a lot of reasons.
     
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  13. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    I'll take this to absurdity.

    Chen the Hsien moves to engage in CC with Ortega. Sanchez shoots into CC with a sniper rifle from 40" away. Chen chooses to dodge but still claims Martial Arts 3 to impose a -3 on Sanchez since Chen is in Engaged state.

    Now, we've discussed this several times. So far I don't see arguments that haven't been made before. It has no resolution, but consider that senior playtesters have indicated that Martial Arts is exclusively tested with CC skills only and is not meant to work if you declare BS Attack.
    I-Kohl has some specific cases called out to make it work with e.g. Dodge.
     
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  14. Barrogh

    Barrogh Well-Known Member

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    To be specific, Ijw claimed (IIRC, it was on the old forums) that I-Kohl is supposed to work exclusively with those specific skills mentioned in I-Kohl description, even though wording is a bit... suggesting.

    Other than that, I came to the same conclusion as OP in terms of what we can make out of RAW - with a caveat that both interpretations are actually flawed (in short: "engaged" is not capitalized for us to be sure that it means Engaged, but OTOH "CC" is also not a correct name for skill declaration in order for us to associate any of CC Special Skills with that declaration).

    Of course, if that wasn't an intention of game designers, I expect this to be errata'd sooner or later.

    I'll take a third option: stop making excuses for subpar RAW "because duh, everyone knows how to play it anyway, so who cares".

    Don't get me wrong, if we were playing an actual game right now, we would come to an agreement in like 15 seconds one way or another and carry on. But this forum section is not just a place of learning, it is also the only platform accessible to most of the community where we can provide a feedback to hopefully help future editions to be understandable without vets teaching people how to read Infinity rulebook.

    I do understand that being an old issue, it is likely slated for rephrasing in the future already. But still, I don't see a reason why would anyone shoot down an attempt to bring up curiosities like this one.
     
    #14 Barrogh, Feb 13, 2018
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2018
  15. avanst

    avanst Member

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    Yes you are taking this to "absurdity". It totally makes no sense that a martial artist manuevering into close combat with an enemy would at all effect the resolve and accuracy of his oppents allies. Just as easy to shoot near your friends while your target does kung-fu.

    Also it's not like these rules don't happen in other areas of the game. Easiest being shooting and enemy through low vis or smoke. Smoke (typically a-6 to bs back) has no negatives to dodging. But low vis (typically a -3 to bs back) does also impose a -3 to dodge.

    So Chen shoots a Ortega through smoke and she dodges as if she can see her enemy, attack type, and timing. However when Chen shoots Sanchez through a dim low laying fog he never responds with his full ability because he didn't see it coming...

    It's not an absurdity to think a martial artist running into close range with you could use manuevers to impose negatives on his/her opponent meanwhile still firing his/her gun.

    Sure you wanna say why does a sniper suffer the penalty, but until you shoot a ninja running into arms reach of your friend from 500ft away and say it's as easy as shooting them in the open I don't accept your examples "absurdity".
     
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  16. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Okay, reject it as you please, though you are aware that CC Attack has essentially the same requirements as Martial Arts, and that your arguments of visualisation falls apart if we replace Ortega with 01, the AI Beacon.

    P.s. Zero Vis and Dodge has been confirmed to be an entirely game balance decision and has nothing to do with visualisation.
     
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  17. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
    Infinity Rules Staff Warcor

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    For what it's worth, I-Kohl mentions that it can be used when declaring Dodge or Engage because it's not restricted to declaring CC Attack like the other Skills.
     
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  18. Barrogh

    Barrogh Well-Known Member

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    This is probably not a good place to post it, but I actually think that OP's interpretation may be a bit more healthy for overall balance between in-game tools, what's with CC being too situational unless we're talking about units with extremely reliable delivery (like impersonators), and even in latter case not being a to-go way of tackling issues.

    Of course, that entails the problem of the game apparently not being balanced around such usage.

    ...although I'd still prefer limiting imposing penalties on models you're in base contact with. For no reasons other than visualization, really.

    And Carthage Engage must be fixed.
     
    #18 Barrogh, Feb 14, 2018
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2018
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  19. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
    Infinity Rules Staff Warcor

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    To be blunt, if you're not getting your CC specialists into CC then you're not playing them well or your tables are too sparse. :disappointed:
     
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  20. Barrogh

    Barrogh Well-Known Member

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    I appreciate the openness, but the problem is not that you can't infiltrate / smoke / maneuver people up the board, it's that when you do, going into CC rather than using shotguns / mines / chain rifles is rarely a better idea unless what you specifically want to do is to tackle TAG or something to a similar effect.

    Units are dealt in full packages though and CC is a good tool in the package for when it's needed.
     
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