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The Heavy Infantry Problem

Discussion in 'Access Guide to the Human Sphere' started by Weathercock, Jun 15, 2019.

  1. barakiel

    barakiel Echo Bravo Master Sergeant

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    I agree with @daboarder . Having some line infantry and REMs doesn't invalidate the theme of IA. Nothing about that fluff blurb indicates that IA is exclusively Heavy Infantry. It's great that IA can run a pretty decent HI-only lineup, complete with some pretty exotic Specialists like KHD and Engineer, and I totally think that's a nod to players who love their heavy armor and want to make it work.

    But if your headcanon is that IA is Heavy Infantry only... So you choose to ignore huge areas of the army list in order to fulfill that headcanon... Then that's a separate issue.

    As a VIRD player, I get it. I could totally run a list that's only Snake Eaters, with a Kamau + ORC Core and not much else. But I think we all recognize that leaving the REMs and Fusiliers at home, and running only elite troops, is pretty problematic. I totally get, but I also am willing to adapt and use the tools available.
     
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  2. daboarder

    daboarder Force One Commander
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    Wait how on earth can you NOT fit 2 skirmisher HI in an LI list?

    I meam sure its a HI hmg Lt....but like we said cant have your cake amd eat it too....swap out a zencha if you need too

    Or lose the EVO and a palbot and take another HI that just gets COC yeah?
    This is awesome
    Screenshot_20190626-092740_Chrome.jpg
    Screenshot_20190626-092600_Chrome.jpg
     
  3. Sedral

    Sedral Jīnshān Task Force Officier

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    @daboarder Sorry mate but your list made me puke a little, and not in a good way. Maybe you're not familiar with IA idk, but I really don't understand why you'd go for an evo hacker in this list when you could get a daoying lt hacker and run free fairy dust every turn while keeping your Lt mostly safe.
    Invincible Army
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    [​IMG]10
    DĀOYĪNG Lieutenant L2 Hacker (Hacking Device) Boarding Shotgun / Breaker Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 29)
    ZÚYŎNG (Fireteam: Duo, Tactical Awareness) HMG / 2 Breaker Pistols, Knife. (1.5 | 38)
    ZÚYŎNG (Fireteam: Haris, Tactical Awareness) Combi Rifle + 1 TinBot B (Deflector L2) / 2 Breaker Pistols, Knife. (0.5 | 34)
    ZÚYǑNG MULTI Rifle / 2 Breaker Pistols, Knife. (0 | 31)
    ZÚYǑNG Boarding Shotgun / 2 Breaker Pistols, Knife. (0 | 26)
    HǍIDÀO (Multispectral Visor L2) MULTI Sniper / Breaker Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 37)
    ZHĒNCHÁ (Forward Observer) Submachine Gun, D.E.P., Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 34)
    ZHĒNCHÁ (Forward Observer) Submachine Gun, D.E.P., Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 34)
    Zhanshi YĪSHĒNG Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 15)
    YÁOZĂO Electric Pulse. (0 | 3)
    MECH-ENGINEER Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 15)
    YÁOZĂO Electric Pulse. (0 | 3)

    4 SWC | 299 Points

    Open in Infinity Army
     
  4. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    If 2x HI skirmishers is spam, I'm afraid to ask what you think vanilla YJ can do now, since they can take 1x Daofei, 2x1x Zhencha, and 2x Guilang, plus Ninjas if you're really feeling froggy. I coulda sworn Zhencha used to be AVA2 in vanilla...

    Yu Jing
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    GROUP 1[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]9
    DĀOYĪNG Lieutenant L2 Hacker (Hacking Device) Boarding Shotgun / Breaker Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 29)
    DÀOFĚI Spitfire / Pistol, Shock CCW. (2 | 55)
    ZHĒNCHÁ (Forward Observer) Submachine Gun, D.E.P., Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 34)
    GŬILÁNG MULTI Sniper Rifle, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 33)
    GŬILÁNG (Minelayer) Combi Rifle, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 26)
    NINJA Hacker (Killer Hacking Device) Tactical Bow / Pistol, DA CCW, Knife. (0 | 29)
    Zhanshi YĪSHĒNG Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 15)
    YÁOZĂO Electric Pulse. (0 | 3)
    MECH-ENGINEER Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 15)
    YÁOZĂO Electric Pulse. (0 | 3)
    ZÚYŎNG (Fireteam: Duo, Tactical Awareness) HMG / 2 Breaker Pistols, Knife. (1.5 | 38)


    And grab one troop from this list.

    GROUP 2[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]2 [​IMG]2
    WÈIBĪNG Yaókòng Combi Rifle, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 16)
    XI ZHUANG Combi Rifle + Light Flamethrower, MadTraps / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 20)
    MIRANDA ASHCROFT Combi Rifle, Nanopulser / Pistol, Monofilament CC Weapon, Knife. (0 | 20)
    MONSTRUCKER Boarding Shotgun, Adhesive Launcher, E/M Grenade / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 18)

    6 SWC | 354 Points

    Open in Infinity Army

    And that's a list I'd happily run! Probably Xi Zhuang.



    Tigers are AVA3 and Liu Xing are AVA1 in Vanilla. I wouldn't take all 4, because that's too many orders off the table unless you're running close to 20 models (and you put 2x tigers in one group, tiger and LX in the other).

    hrm... OK, I'm going to post this while puttering around with trying to get 4x AD troops out of a YJ list.




    I'm OK with bringing REMs to support the power armor. In fact, I think Infinity isn't taking enough REMs on the battlefield, but that's a different discussion (and we may see lots more REMs if/when CB gets around to an actual mass battle game instead of spec-ops skirmishes, as Infinity's setting isn't allowing enough AI on the field to really let REMs do specops work)


    Where is your engineer to fix EM and glue? Because I'm not taking lots of HI without an Engineer. My Samurai 7 list has an engineer in it, and he gets the one helperbot that list can afford.

    Also, as @Sedral pointed out, not a whole lot of reason to take an EVObot in IA, not when the Daoying hacker LT2 is 4pts more and gives much better protection.
     
  5. daboarder

    daboarder Force One Commander
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    Lose the evo then. Not like the khd tinbot b combo needs it (and yes that is speaking from experience with the santiago)

    As to zencha. Fact that you can fit two aside. Fitting 2 in any other HI focused list in the game woukd be laughable. MO alone pays 40+ pts for its HI skirmisher and a paltry 7 pts less for its 1w skirmisher. And thats still perfectly workable.
     
  6. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    @daboarder giving non-PanO factions listbuilding suggestions always cracks me up a bit.
     
  7. Proletarian

    Proletarian Well-Known Member

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    What about this list? Two infiltrating specialists, Hac Tao murder machine, drop trooper that can either alpha strike or hold off for a last turn objective grab, as well as a strong defensive link that can also go on the attack if needed. If you are super worried about hacking you can also switch the Hac Tao for the KHD for another good specialist. 5 HI in this list.

    Invincible Army
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────
    [​IMG]10
    ZHANSHI (Forward Observer) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 12)
    ZHANSHI Paramedic (MediKit) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 13)
    ZHANSHI HMG / Pistol, Knife. (1 | 19)
    ZHANSHI Combi Rifle + Light Grenade Launcher / Pistol, Knife. (1 | 15)
    HǍIDÀO (Multispectral Visor L2) MULTI Sniper / Breaker Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 37)
    DĀOYĪNG Lieutenant L2 Hacker (Hacking Device) Boarding Shotgun / Breaker Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 29)
    HAC TAO HMG, Nanopulser / Pistol, DA CCW. (2 | 68)
    ZHĒNCHÁ (Forward Observer) Submachine Gun, D.E.P., Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 34)
    ZHĒNCHÁ (Forward Observer) Submachine Gun, D.E.P., Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 34)
    LIÚ XĪNG (Specialist Operative) MULTI Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 38)
    6 SWC | 299 Points
    Open in Infinity Army
     
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  8. daboarder

    daboarder Force One Commander
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    It always cracks me up when people think experience with tools doesnt translate across factions in this game. I mean how bad do you have to be to not recognize the similarities betwerm units like a haidoa KHD in a link with tinbot B and a santiago khd with tinbot a

    Or to value a 26 pt BS profile when youre used to using 37 pt BS profiles.

    Or to not understand how a 6 man link works.....


    Pretty bad, but then we wouldn't be having this conversation if that wasnt evidently the casr
     
  9. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    @daboarder Nah man I seem to remember some pretty pratfall-ish attempts on your part with Morat lists.
     
  10. Hachiman Taro

    Hachiman Taro Inverted gadfly

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    It really seems like this whole thread is really just about thinly disguised IA (and maybe MO) complaints, rather than a genuine discussion of issues with HI in general.

    Much as I'd enjoy seeing my Riot Grrls buffed for the lols, maybe such complaints would be better contained in the appropriate sub forum(s) with the rest ;)
     
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  11. daboarder

    daboarder Force One Commander
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    Shrug morat players round my parts are doing well, and like my help/ideas.

    Bad players blame their tools i guess
     
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  12. Sedral

    Sedral Jīnshān Task Force Officier

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    While they operate in a similar way, there's also a few key differences:

    - It's 1 model, vs 2 for the Yu-jing combo. Doesn't change much when considering zuyong or shang-jì teams, much bigger issue when you're trying to play with mowangs, hulangs and the like. You can have a Joan/Santiago duo and still have your killer hacker operate at pick performance in your active turn.

    - MO doesn't need it to deal with hacking at all. Dart and TOOSFO can hunt down repeaters and hackers in the midfield, whereas a zhencha is at risk if he tries to take down an entranched repeater, even with fairy dust on (30% odds to end up isolated against a WIP 14 oblivion if you're busy shooting the repeater).
     
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  13. Proletarian

    Proletarian Well-Known Member

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    The zencha has stealth to just go around the repeaters. That's hardly a problem for them.

    I'll definitely conceed that a solid repeater net can be a pain for IA but you certainly have options to deal with it at your disposal. Hac Tao KHD from TO, HaiDao KHD in a haris with tinbotB, the Lui Xing alpha striking the hacker, using you zhanshi to deal with it.
     
  14. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Any hacker in a 4-5 strong fireteam has sixth sense.
     
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  15. Tourniquet

    Tourniquet TJC Tech Support

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    This is where the hac tao and hai dao come in to just murder hack the enemy hacker. They can't hack you if they're dead, and between fairy dust and tinbot b (on the haidao) you're relatively safe.
    Don't want to counter hack that's fine spec fire a grenade on it from a linked zanshi.
     
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  16. Proletarian

    Proletarian Well-Known Member

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    Being a camo marker is pretty cool. Protects you from lots of different things.

    And if its in a link then it is a known threat on the board and can therefore be planned around. The real problem with hackers is when they have a marker state as a surprise. I'd also love the opportunity to redrum it to break the link as opposed to risk the FtF against its heavy weapon AROs.
     
    #196 Proletarian, Jun 26, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2019
  17. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    It still means that if you try to attack a midfield repeater you're going to take an unopposed hack.
     
  18. Proletarian

    Proletarian Well-Known Member

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    Then attack from outside of 8? Or if it's not super important to get your zencha into that exact spot on the board just move past and do something else? If there is a core linked hacker on the board go hunt it down with your SMG and mines. Or use one of the other threat vectors in your list like the aforementioned Lui Xing or Hac Tao?

    The only time I'm foreseeing this being a problem is bottom of turn three where you need to do something on top of the repeater, and if your only option is to run a zencha at it then something else has clearly gone horribly wrong with your gameplan and you were likely going to lose anyway. The price you pay for 2W (or equivalent) and increased armour is being hackable. If you can't think of ways to either negate or mitigate that downside then run other things?
     
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  19. Sedral

    Sedral Jīnshān Task Force Officier

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    It's not about clearing the way for the zhencha, it's about using the zhencha to clear the way for the other units. Like, say, a mowang.


    Both the haidao and Hac tao are a 60+ investment that needs to walk from your DZ to do this kind of job. That makes them good at clearing the way for themselves, but for other units? Not so much. Which is the point I was making by bringing up Dart and the TOOSFO.

    The Zhanshi LgL is indeed the best counter, but again, very dicey, so potentially very order inneficient.

    Also, the Liu Xing can't drop on markers sadly, and even then it's VERY dicey: you have to pass your jump roll, wound your opponent with your damage 12 blast and don't get oblivioned in return. And don't get me started on mary problems with her bloody zapper.
     
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  20. Proletarian

    Proletarian Well-Known Member

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    Drop the Lui Xing on the hacker. The way the sequence of AROs work it can't dodge the blast nor hack your trooper as it has to use its ARO to hack transport. If it doesn't die from the initial drop you can then spend one more order to just shoot it at burst 3 on 16s.
     
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