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Dazer and Super-Jump

Discussion in '[Archived]: N3 Rules' started by Tongfa, Jun 24, 2019.

  1. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

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    I agree, the phrasing caught me off guard at first. After another reading, you're right. That last line does indicate 4" up and down for a cylinder of 8" in total height.
     
  2. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

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    Trying to reconcile that last lines meaning with the first is annoying,

    "8 inches extending from the border of its base, as measured vertically"
    and
    "projected upwards and downwards in a cylinder 8 inches high"

    That's Infinity for you, even a ZoC measurement has me confused.
     
  3. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    That's English as much at fault, to be honest. The second part of the sentence refers to the part of the cylinder extending upwards and the part extending downwards, what it tells you is "sharp corners, cylindrical shape - not rounded corners, Kinder surprise shape"
     
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  4. A Mão Esquerda

    A Mão Esquerda Deputy Hexahedron Officer

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    It is worth noting that while interesting, the discussion regarding “shape” of ZoC is immaterial to the matter at hand, since the Dazer explicitly notes that the zone is of infinite height.
     
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  5. colbrook

    colbrook Grenade Delivery Specialist

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    We should point out to our USAian members that's OG Kinder surprise, not the unholy blasphemy sold as a kinder egg in the United States.
     
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  6. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

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    You're right, we shouldn't fix phrasing in other rules that we find out are really poorly written along the way.
     
  7. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    It kinda got touched on later but I think it's important to call this out specifically: it's base not Silhouette. Thus the ZOC of a Jotum (S7) and a Fast Panda (S1) are both 16"+~3mm in total height.

    Sil is only treated as Base for the purposes of being 'base to base' where only SIL2SIL is actually required. Otherwise they're still distinct concepts.
     
  8. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

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    I have to disagree. The person who wrote that choose a poor combination of words. The English language isn't at fault for that.
     
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  9. Diphoration

    Diphoration Well-Known Member
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    Although the wording suggests the ZoC starts from the base, the drawing suggests the ZoC starts from the silhouette.

    Both parallelogram is currently the same height, I adjusted top one to match the height of the bottom one (the silhouette is a bit taller than the trooper, but he seems to be crouching a bit). Regardless, if it was from the base of the trooper in the picture, it would make it even more disproportionate between the top and the bottom.

    [​IMG]

    Who knows! :D
     
  10. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Only upwards or downwards as well? My understanding of the word height implies it's infinite only upwards.

    As much as the discussion at hand concerns upwards, start building a bit vertically and it's really easy to make terrain more than 8" tall.
     
    #30 Mahtamori, Jun 25, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2019
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  11. Arkhos94

    Arkhos94 Well-Known Member

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    Wordreference define height as "measurement bottom to top" so infinite height is infinite both upward and downward.

    Also, Smoke is also define as "infinite height" and it goes infinite both upward and downward

    I keep my initial answer :
    I don't see how the wording is poor :
    - zone of control is a mechanic we know so => easy to use
    - "infinite height" is a wording already used for smoke so we know what it means

    Combining the two should not bring that much discussion
     
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  12. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

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    Are you a native English speaker? Because that's not how a native English speaker would read this. "Infinite height" can mean both "extends in both directions" and "extends in one direction indefinitely." Not to mention this reasoning is based on a misunderstanding of the concept of "infinite" -- as something can have a defined starting point and still have infinite height.

    As a side point, does smoke actually go downward in Infinity? I know there are some rulings about how it doesn't cover places with total cover from the center of the smoke template, but it's not clear from the rule that this would be the case (unless I am missing something.)
     
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  13. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

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    For something to have a height there needs to be a base/bottom/starting point for reference.
    1. the measurement from base to top or (of a standing person) from head to foot.
    2. elevation above ground or a recognized level (typically sea level).
    Whether an object has an infinite height or not there still needs to be a point of reference to measure the height from. We have that point in the form of the Dazer markers ZoC. Unfortunately I still can't decipher the ZoC explanation. Which i find hilarious and sad.

    The Dazer covers an area 4" or 8" below the marker. Not that it matters but it has infinite height starting from either the bottom of the markers ZoC or from the markers base lol.

    ZoC: The more I read this rule the more it looks like an 8" tall cylinder with an 8" diameter centered on the trooper.
     
  14. Arkhos94

    Arkhos94 Well-Known Member

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    I'm French so not a native speaker. By the way, "hauteur" which is the French word for height would roughly cause the same discussion.

    As I'm not a native speaker, I check the dictionnary when it come to the fine interpretation of a word meaning. For example, the Cambridge dictionnary, one of the international reference for the meaning of a word says infinite means "without limit". I'm pretty sure a bottom is a "limit".


    To be included in the smoke you need :
    - To be under or above the template
    - To be able to trace an unblocked line between some part of your silhouette and the center of the template

    With a standard explosition template, you would need to put your template vertically to check if you are in the area of effect if you are above or below the point of impact but the "infinite height" of the smoke template remove the need for that : smoke is an infinite column stopped only by total cover.
     
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  15. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
    Infinity Rules Staff Warcor

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    I am, and it's how I read it.

    The only reason smoke doesn't go downwards is because the blast focus rules will stop the volume from extending below the surface that the template is on.
     
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  16. Arkhos94

    Arkhos94 Well-Known Member

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    This doesn't prevent the smoke to go downward : nothing says there is a surface under the whole template, only under the impact point.

    As long as I can see the target, I can put a smoke on anything. As long as I can trace an unblocked line between a point under the template and the center of the template, I'm smoked

    Examples :
    I'm prone in contact with a barrel of oil. Someone put a smoke on top of the barrel, I will be under the smoke
    I'm on a building without an edge and put a smoke at the limit of the roof. The front of the building will be protected by smoke
     
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  17. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
    Infinity Rules Staff Warcor

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    I strongly suggest playing that the blast focus is in the middle of an area at least 3x3mm, so that it's consistent with the LoF rules that allowed you to actually fire the Smoke Grenade.
     
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  18. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Height is by definition the distance from base to top (wictionary, Merriam-Webster), the part that extends upwards (Merriam-Webster), or the elevation above a recognizable level (Oxford dictionary). The inclusion of said word would imply there is a base, otherwise it would be an infinite cylinder with the diameter of the zone of control - or of infinite height and depth.
    I can't find any reputable definition which would qualify "height" as also extending downwards. Even Cambridge' weirder definition of "from top to base" doesn't fit since it would require a base as reference point.
     
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  19. WarHound

    WarHound Well-Known Member

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    So, if a hacker is prone on a gantry, and a HI walks underneath, are you measuring the Hacker's ZoC to be 4" below it's base, or 8" below it's base?

    How are you not noticing the fact that if the vertical distance is 4" up and down from the base, yet the horizontal distance is 8" either side of the base, all 3d ZoC are elliptical shapes?

    Does that sit well with you?


    In my view, ZoC is measure 8" in all directions so as to create as near a 'sphere of control' as possible. To have elliptical ZoC makes stuff-all sense.
     
  20. tox

    tox SorriBarai
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    Your view is clearly wrong, as you can see here: http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Zone_of_Control
     
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