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The Heavy Infantry Problem

Discussion in 'Access Guide to the Human Sphere' started by Weathercock, Jun 15, 2019.

  1. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    Well I always looked at them with envy. A sectorial with Rriot Girl Core/Haris living up to a level of Hospitallers/Magister (now Girls are simply better than MO running HI link) with a support of nice WB/Hackers/Haris/ODD and quality SK, what not to love ?
     
  2. Teslarod

    Teslarod when in doubt, Yeet

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    ARM3, BTS9 Total Immunity Jotum for 85 points sounds good to me


    Obviousoy kidding. Although a low ARM TI Tag would be insanely good by default.
    Would't be against free "shields" (functionally Symbiomates just without the Buff to ARM) to make TAGs actually survivable.
     
    eciu likes this.
  3. Nemo No Name

    Nemo No Name Aleph Cultural Atache

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    Since when is StarCo inferior?!

    And frankly, Bakunin isn't inferior either.
     
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  4. ObviousGray

    ObviousGray Frenzied Mushroom

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    Oh yeah, here we go on Round 2.
     
  5. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Been wanting an ARM/BTS 6 Guijia with TI for a few years now, and that was before they made Total Immunity significantly stronger (and removed its protection against Overlord and Total Control). It'd create an interesting counter-point to the Jotum in terms of tankiness - the Jotum would still be markedly stronger with higher BS and much better protection against weapons relying on burst (such as above all else rifles and HMGs).

    @eciu I've heard Bakinun has a problem fitting everything necessary for the mission when you go full-Grrl, particularly any form of decent LT and LT shell game. Not too dissimilar from ISS and Wu Ming, tbh, though you could debate which sectorial gets the most value from their HI train. I wouldn't be able to go into any detail on the topic, though.

    @Nemo No Name put that in perspective that Zewrath is very keen on what's top tier and what's not. And to be perfectly honest, a sectorial that's worse than the top 5-ish sectorials would be inferior by definition.
     
  6. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    Which comes to my great surprise (though I'm not a Nomad player). They have full HI core link for 154pts and cheaper (than MO) LI (with cheap LT options xD) Their cost of SK is also cheaper than TOFOOS (though obviously no HD). So I would say that they actually have more room for tools/equipment than the old (imho better) MO had. Plus WB with smoke ;)

    But again its just me, filthy sad MO player (on MO vacation).
     
  7. Hachiman Taro

    Hachiman Taro Inverted gadfly

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    Riot Grrls are great. I played top table at a satellite with them a couple years back. Feel like I'd still do fine with them but I'm playing CJC, and I don't play as competitively right now. Some of the other options in BJC are a bit meh (Moderators suck) but there's plenty of good stuff to fill out a Grrls core list.

    MO have different things that are good that BJC and Grrrls don't tho.
     
    #127 Hachiman Taro, Jun 24, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2019
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  8. Zewrath

    Zewrath Elitist Jerk

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    Since their inception, to be quite frank. They both got an update that were according to an old paradigm of sectorial design. Bakunin don't have any mixed link options (except for a special fireteam option regarding Kusanagi and the Revernd Healer, which wasn't actually new as that was a very old option at that point), this became an outdated sectorial on arrival, as ISS was an update that came at the same time and had already (along with other sectorials) embraced the mixed linked paradigm. StarCo was born under the mixed link paradigm but just as Bakunin this paradigm was outdated on arrival, as Druze already shaped the core concept of the wildcard option (Valerya Gromoz), which became very prolific on many armies since then and even other old sectorials, like SAA, MO, CJC etc.

    My comment stating that Riot Grrls are "luckily" stuck in inferior sectorials, wasn't a commentary on those players who plays that army (myself included) but rather that the army isn't on a competitively advantageous level*, so even if you take issue with Riot Grrls shooting/dodging on 16's, you're lucky because due to the sectorial that they belong to, you won't be running into them so much, if any at all. The same cannot be said about Mutts, Posthumans, Kamau, Helot (+ the long list of what every unit people always seems to take an issue with) and so on, and so on.

    This wasn't a personal attack so I'd appreciate it that you don't respond with emotionally charged language. If you take issue with my statement, then please present your perspective and argue your case, so I have anything, other than your words, to work with it.

    Kind regards.

    ...Thanks... I guess..? :sweat_smile:
     
    #128 Zewrath, Jun 24, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2019
  9. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    You're welcome! :p

    Seriously, though, you usually make good points, but seldom waste time with niceties. Toes sticking out will be stepped on.
     
  10. Nemo No Name

    Nemo No Name Aleph Cultural Atache

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    Thanks for trying, but I'll remove myself from this conversation - I forgot how arrogant he can be.

    There was nothing personal in my response, as I don't play Nomads nor do I care about the status of their sectorials in particular. I was just expressing disbelief someone who claims to be good at this game thinks StarCo isn't good.

    Anyway, I'm gonna go somewhere else, since I do not appreciate your attempt at tone policing. Enjoy roleplaying about being "objective" and "neutral", and talking about competitiveness that the rest of us cannot match.:face_with_rolling_eyes:
     
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  11. daszul

    daszul Well-Known Member

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    I think giving Total Immunity to TAGs is the wrong way:

    Yeah, TAGs need a buff, but they need a vulnerability as well.
    Being vulnerable to AP (and Explosive) is good to promote "bring the right tool for the job".

    So a better buff would ne stuff like Mimitism/ODD/Nanoscreen on the defense sid,
    and X-Visor/MSV1/2 on the offensive side.

    I mean - the TAGs are like the centerpieces of an army,
    why wouldn't you outfit them with those (ODD/MSV/...) tools?

    And to some extend this might be the right way to approach HI as well:
    Riot Grrls have MSV1 and Hyper-Dynamics (yeah, and the Frenzy discount...),
    two skills (/pieces of equipment) that every Mobile Brigada would kill for!
     
  12. Zewrath

    Zewrath Elitist Jerk

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    Pick one mate. :sweat_smile:


    And I suppose you’re able to point out exactly where I claimed that I was good at this game?
    Also, I think I did a somewhat decent explanation on why I find both sectorials lacking, whereas you’re still assuming that StarCo being good is a universal truth you don’t even need to explain, yet you have the gals to call me arrogant.. projecting much? :thinking_face:



    Tone policing? As in what? Pointing out that you don’t have any arguments? I’m legit confused.
    Also, I am loving this contempt. Ouch.
     
    Abrilete likes this.
  13. Benkei

    Benkei Well-Known Member

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    Adding Mimetism to everything that needs a buff is not the solution, it only showcases how out of line visibility modifiers are. Besides, if you give all TAGs Mimetism/ODD/whatever, how exactly does that encourage bringing AP/explosive?
     
  14. daszul

    daszul Well-Known Member

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    @Benkei - did you read my post?
    I never said that.

    Mimitism is one of 6 examples I mentioned
    of how you could buff one unit type that could need some love.

    Sensor might be interesting as well.

    Just add some high-tech feature(s) to the high-tech war machines.
    Not the same to all, nor all to all...

    I was arguing against giving them Total Immunity.
    If all TAGs had TI - what to use AP or K1 for?

    If some had Mimitism/ODD, you might want some MSVs,
    if they had an MSV, you might want Eclipse/White Noise.

    Sure, sometimes none of that is available,
    but then this is supposed to be a buff to TAGs after all.

    And a TI doggo vs an MSV Tag still sounds better than a TI doggo vs a TI TAG...
     
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  15. DaRedOne

    DaRedOne Morat Warrior Philosopher
    Warcor

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    The problem is stuff in this game is costed very weirdly. MSV is obscenely expensive (just compare the Marut to the Avatar, or the Hsien to the Aquilla Guard) whereas Mimetism is fairly cheap. I know I keep beating the Optimization horse, but it is all about optimization, really.

    For the same cost, a Mowang is more resilient than a Yan Huo, but loses in long range power for it. It's a decent and fair tradeoff that makes it so the Mowang doesn't step on the Yan Huo's toes. This is a good example of optimization.

    Meanwhile, for only 1 pont more and 1 SWC more the Kriza Borac is an unrelenting long range muderbeast that completely eclipses the Taskmaster. You can argue that the Tasky is more versatile and has good board control (which is true), but it doesn't matter, because the level at which the Kriza is optimized just makes all that stuff a moot point. Same goes for comparing Hollow Men to Mobile Brigada. This is a case of bad optimization, not because Hollow Men or Krizas are bad, but because they overtake their own faction in therms of usefulness.

    Granted, Nomads has a lot of options, so it is to be expected that this kind of thing happens every once in a while. But recently we've been seeing it more and more. Veteran Kazaks crap on Mormaers; Mukhtars crap on Lasiqs, Yu Jing has 3 options of Arm 4 HI but they might as well all be Wu Ming and so on. These models might see use in their respective sectorials, but in the end they feel unfun and weak compared to their optimized cousins within their own faction.

    And I really don't want to bring cross faction comparing into this talk, because I feel it's a bit counterproductive. Some factions have been designed a specific way, and we have to live with that.
     
  16. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    One of them is a pet character in a pet faction, the other is not. There is a strong Aleph advocate on the design team, clearly. The same can't be said for Yu Jing.
     
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  17. Nemo No Name

    Nemo No Name Aleph Cultural Atache

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    Not Aleph advocate. Aristeia. Aleph probably got her because they didn't have any better ideas for units so they decided to kill 2 birds with one stone.
     
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  18. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Eh. I remember Aleph's original gimmick being "Combined Army but better" with their Netrods which are just better than Imetrons etc.
     
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  19. Hachiman Taro

    Hachiman Taro Inverted gadfly

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    I feel like if the core contention of this thread when you drill down is really that a theoretical HI with exactly the same stats as an Alguacile should cost less than an Alguacile, because it has more vulnerabilities (eg hacking and E/M) but it doesnt appear to be costed that way in the formula, resulting in some miscostings, perhaps more apparent for 'light' (non 2 true wound) HI and/or massed HI or when comparing to LI or MI that somehow ignore their own general limitations and get more than 1 normal wound.

    That's possibly true but it's been used to make some very broad generalisations that aren't really true (eg HI should get a general buff) because it more or less ignores a lot of nuances woven into the game on top of that basic premise. Liked mixed links and other specific optimisations. So if HI in general were buffed IA might still be OK but Hollowmen would be out of control.

    This layering of nuance more or less seems to be a primary way CB address imbalances over time. For example, rather than nerfing Jammers they often seem to do something like add more veteran troops instead (or maybe that was their plan all along, and they've been playing with a better balanced unreleased beta game than the released one we have).

    It sort of comes down to the fact that things seem to more or less have a fixed price, but a different value depending on the situation. MSV2 is better with smoke or linked but costs the same without. That some things get this synergy and some don't can be the source of some frustration, but CB playing with it in design is also the source of the beautiful asymmetric balance in the game. Different factions get different synergistic (and anti synergistic) combinations to end up about equal (this is why cross faction comparisons are often misguided). It also makes it very challenging to get every individual troop competitively balanced (especially considering a few apparent structurally inaccurate premises on cost in the base formula).

    IMHO every faction / sectorial taken as a whole is close to balanced though, since they all have things that are powerful enough to be exploited for a game advantage by a good player putting them in the right context.

    So TLDR, this conversation would be a little closer to the truth with a little less generalisation and a little more nuance. Like the game we play ;)
     
    #139 Hachiman Taro, Jun 24, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2019
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  20. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Eh, the stats don't really bear that out. Posthumans really *are* significantly undercosted, Tohaa *are* significantly more powerful than most other factions, etc. It'd be nice if that was true, but as it stands critiquing the points system is a worthy endeavor snce it appears to have significant flaws that aren't being addressed.
     
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