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Which states pass on from TAG to Pilot?

Discussion in '[Archived]: N3 Rules' started by daszul, Jun 21, 2019.

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  1. daszul

    daszul Well-Known Member

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    If a TAG that is already in the Isolated and IMM-2 states,
    and gets hit again to drop to 0 STR,
    which states do pass on to the Pilot?

    Which of those two,
    and which in general?
     
    Ginrei likes this.
  2. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
    Infinity Rules Staff Warcor

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    As far as I'm aware, the only state that doesn't include the Pilot is Unconscious.

    Note that if the Manned TAG is Immobilised, the Pilot cannot voluntarily Dismount.
     
  3. daszul

    daszul Well-Known Member

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  4. solkan

    solkan Well-Known Member

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    Just to be bothersome... :nerd_face:

    Prone is distinct between Pilot and TAG. Possessed is probably distinct between Pilot and TAG (especially if the Pilot is dismounted when Possession happens). Possession is certainly distinct if a Remote Pilot is dismounted before a Remote Presence TAG becomes possessed.

    Burnt, Unloaded (if there are any pilots that can become Unloaded), and a few other states would also be distinct between Pilot and TAG.

    I think there's a "for sanity's sake" argument to be made for civilian synchronization and similar states to transfer from TAG to pilot and from pilot to TAG during dismounting and mounting. (Although that sort of thing may get cancelled by the TAG becoming unconscious before the pilot dismounts.). Or is there a more compelling argument against letting CivEvac transfer like that?
     
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  5. Ogid

    Ogid Well-Known Member

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    I think by default all states are "transfered" or probably more strictly "shared" as they are considered the same model, even those like burnt that won't have much sense, but it's for the sake of simplicity I guess. Those rules could be redone but it's not like unmounting the pilot for more than a quick obj grab is a very good idea anyway.
    The unloaded state might be a Raicho pilot getting some mines from the baggage bot before returning to his TAG. The prone state is different, you can only mount/dismount with move skill and you control the prone state at the start of each move skill; as a TAG cannot prone you just can't declare it.
     
  6. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

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    I'm having a hard time following this discussion. Where are the rules governing game states being shared between pilot and TAG?
     
  7. Ogid

    Ogid Well-Known Member

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    No rules about that specifically as far as I know.
    They are the same model with 2 different profiles (kind of a Su-Jian or a Dogwarrior) but with some particularities (the pilot and manned rules). So what happens to one part of the profile happens to the other (except the stated exceptions like the unconscious state or the FAQ that let the pilot stay in some kind of undead state after the TAG is removed).
     
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  8. Ogid

    Ogid Well-Known Member

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    I missed this one before. The possessed state works only in the TAG part of the profile, you are given a modified possessed trooper profile that you must use. As you are not allowed to use the standard TAG or the Pilot profile, you cannot use the better statline of the TAG or try to dismount the pilot for example.
    I don't have experience with remote pilots (I play with armies with manned ones), but let me try. Cheking the rules there are a few differences if you possess it with the remote pilot outside:
    The possessed part is still in the TAG (you can only activate the possessed trooper profile), who is in the locked state for the remote pilot being outside.
    For the possessed state rules the TAG original controler cannot activate the trooper, which should include the remote pilot.
    The possessing player can try to cancel the locked state by declaring reset (as stated in those rules), but that requires the remote pilot being Unc/Dead/Inm; so the possessing player will have to hunt down the remote before taking full control of the TAG.

    EDIT: OK, just found that was patched with this FAQ
    So both manned and remoted controled TAG work the same when being possessed.
     
    #8 Ogid, Jun 22, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2019
  9. toadchild

    toadchild Premeasure

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    Operators are different from pilots, but the ejection rules have a clause covering some state transfer:

    http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Evacuation_Device_(ED)
    • If the Operator would be vulnerable to Hacking or E/M Ammunition, he cannot be Hacked or harmed by E/M until after its model is placed on the game table.
    So at least in this case things like IMM-1, IMM-2, and possibly Isolation do not apply to the Iguana Operator after it ejects. I believe this clause is largely unchanged since 2nd edition, which did not have isolation, so it's not immediately clear to me if that particular effect of E/M is included.
     
  10. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

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    I see nothing in the rules to suggest when a pilot or its Manned TAG suffers a game state or effect that the other must also suffer that state or effect. The only exception i see is that when a dismounted pilot enters the Dead state, the TAG also enters that state.

    If a pilot is in the TAG when the TAG enters the Dead state, the pilot never actually enters the dead state itself. It's just forever in limbo because the TAG is no longer on the table for the player to activate the pilot and dismount.

    Wounds taken for the TAG and pilot are tracked separately on their own profile. When dismounted there are two different targets on the table with their own profile. The rules suggest a TAG and its dismounted pilot each generate their own order during the tactical phase.
    • The Pilot of an Unconscious Vehicle or TAG generates no Orders for himself or for his Order Pool.
    Q: A Pilot or Remote Pilot has dismounted from his TAG and the TAG is not in a Null state. Does the TAG still generate Orders in the Order count step of the Tactical Phase?
    A: Yes.​

    The FAQ seems to suggest I can activate my pilot using it's own profile for the entire order. Why would this be dependent on the TAGs current state?
    Q: When Mounting or Dismounting, which profile is activated?
    A: The new Troop Profile is the one that is activated for the entire Order sequence. The other profile does not count as having been activated.​

    This effect below from the Manned Special skill allows the pilot to activate while the TAG is unconscious. If the pilot can activate under those conditions, I assume it can activate while the TAG is immobilized.
    • This Special Skill allows the user to receive Orders from its Order Pool despite being Unconscious. These Orders can only be used to Dismount the Pilot(see General Movement rules, Move), and use the Pilot's Troop Profile.
    A pilot and TAG function much different from a Su Jian or Fraacta. The Su Jian and Fraacta are only ever on the table as one trooper. So game states follow that trooper. Their ability to switch profiles doesn't suggest any alteration to the troopers current game states. However, Pilots and Manned TAGs appear to function as two completely separate troopers within the rules.
     
    #10 Ginrei, Jun 22, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2019
  11. Ogid

    Ogid Well-Known Member

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    True, I totally forgot about the operators lol.
    For the above clause they seem to "cleanse" themselves after the ejection to most game states. So it seems that isolation would also be removed as it doesn't say that state is passed to the operator.
     
  12. Ogid

    Ogid Well-Known Member

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    Pilots are kind of weird because both profiles can exist at the same time, not like the transformer or the "werewolf". But they are not 2 different miniatures like a Chimera and her G:Syncs. The states affect models so as long as it is legal for both of them, it will affect both. Mind that in the abilities they talk about different profiles.

    The dead state is actually a big give away; before they FAQed if the TAG was destroyed while the pilot was in the table the pilot was also removed, even if he was in perfect state.

    Each of these multiprofile models state how the wounds are handled, in this case if you dismount then the pilot is on his own, but that's stated. The pilot order are covered in the pilot rules. They are totally dependent on the TAG to generate them.

    The most unintuitive thing about these rules is that the "main" profile is the big TAG, not the pilot. And also the "shared" states, which is kind of weird with some of them; but I guess it's like that for not overcomplicating those rules.
     
  13. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

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    Are you sure? It seems to me that they simply function in either state. Sometimes as one trooper using the TAG profile and sometimes as two troopers each using their own profile.
    Doesn't that point to my interpretation instead? They ruled that in the situation where both are on the table the pilot can continue to function regardless of what happens to the TAG itself. My assumption is the TAG is only removed when the pilot dies because it cannot function without the pilot. Unlike the other way around. It also ensures the opponent gets full value for removing the TAG, not just the pilot.
    I edited my previous post to include more details on the two orders. G: Synchronized troopers have rules stating they don't generate orders. The pilot does not. It only states one situation where it doesn't generate it's own order.

    G: Synchronized troopers don't provide Orders to the Order Pool, and cannot receive Orders from their Order Pool.​
     
  14. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

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    It also seems very reasonable for the pilot to generate it's own order if dismounted during the tactical phase. Spending orders to mount or dismount is costly and dangerous. This provides a small boost to make using pilots as specialists more practical.
     
  15. toadchild

    toadchild Premeasure

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    I believe that was an inconsistency in the translation where the Spanish and English versions said different things; in this case it turned out the Spanish version was correct.
     
  16. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    It's worth pointing out that you can't Possess a TAG if it's Pilot isn't in residence.

    "Q: Can you use the Hacking Programs Overlord or Total Control on a TAG whose Pilot or Remote Pilot has dismounted?A: No."

    There's an argument that you can activate a Possessed TAG and declare "Move(Dismount)" but then you're not allowed to do anything so it basically breaks the game. So don't do that.

    Tl;dr Possession does not and can not propogate to Pilots.

    The interesting one is what happens when you Gotcha! the TAG when the Pilot is dismounted. They're unambiguously the same trooper and IMM-1/IMM-2 applies to the Trooper. While it appears to be RAW it appears to me to be an exploit so you probably shouldn't do that (and my local meta won't let me anyway :'().

    Equally, with Oblivion, once the Pilot is outside the TAG they're activated by the Order so I would argue should be able to receive orders even if the TAG is Isolated AFTER they've already exited the TAG.

    Whereas when they're still in the TAG I'd argue that both the TAG and the Pilot are Isolated (as per @ijw's statement). So if you spend the Irregular order to Dismount the Pilot, then the Pilot cannot receive additional Orders.

    Basically, I'd argue the most intuitive way to play it is that: when a Pilot and TAG are together they are treated as the same trooper when applying effects (what happens to one happens to the other) but when they're apart you apply effects separately (what happens to one does not simultaneously happen to the other). However, Sepsitors are a problem for this model: if you Sepsitorise the Pilot you should be able to mount and use the TAG.

    Operators OTOH are unaffected by IMM and ISO effects applied to their TAG. However other effects hit both the TAG and Operator: if you Sepsitorise an Iggy you also get the Operator.
     
  17. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

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    At the moment, I don't have any issue with the Pilot+Manned TAG rules. But this thread is making me question if I'm missing something. This is how I understand the rules and if I'm doing something wrong, please tell me what and why:

    In my first Tactical phase I generate one order from my Raicho. I run around and and take hacking ARO's. The pilot profile is not active yet because I have not used a short skill Mov to dismount. Those ARO's only affect my TAG and not the pilot unless I'm explicitly told otherwise. I fail saves against Gotcha! and Oblivion. My TAG has a marker next to it for Imm-1. It's immune to isolated because the TAG itself has the morat skill.

    Next I get hit with Expel and fail that save. My pilot is now standing outside the TAG with no markers next to it. The pilot profile is now active. The TAG profile is also active and can be targeted but is restricted as per:
    • A Manned trooper whose Pilot has dismounted cannot use its TAG or Vehicle Troop Profile to declare Orders or AROs.
    In my opponents turn my Raicho is targeted by hacking attacks again. I fail all my saves, Gotcha, Oblivion, and Total Control. My TAG is only Imm-1 as the pilot is not inside the TAG and it has the morat skill.

    My next turns Tactical phase starts. As per Expel and a FAQ:
    • An expelled Pilot continues to generate Orders for her Order Pool.
    • Enemies may choose the TAG as a target while the Pilot is outside it.
    • Q: A Pilot or Remote Pilot has dismounted from his TAG and the TAG is not in a Null state. Does the TAG still generate Orders in the Order count step of the Tactical Phase?
      A: Yes.
    I generate an order from the TAG and from the Pilot. My pilot pushes some buttons, survives some ARO's, and declares Mov to Mount the TAG. The pilot profile is now inactive and the TAG's profile is used. But the TAG is still Imm-1 so I can't move anywhere. While mounting the TAG it took an ARO, Total Control, and lost. The TAG is now Possessed. I use my last order to activate my pilot profile for the whole order and dismount the TAG. I'd rather my pilot get shot than the TAG run a muck.

    The Pilot is always the trooper declaring the Move skill to Mount or Dismount. From there, the Pilot profile is used when Dismounting and the TAG profile is used when Mounting. The TAG is simply the object being mounted or dismounted.

    If Imm-1 or Possessed is supposed to prevent Pilots using Mount or Dismount, the rules should be tweaked. Currently the Pilot can come and go as they please but are restricted once inside the TAG by any states attached to it.
     
    #17 Ginrei, Jun 23, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2019
  18. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    You're mistaken.

    The Order Expenditure Sequence prevents the originally owning player Dismounting from a Possessed TAG. Equally it prevents someone Dismounting from an IMM TAG.

    The process for Dismounting is as follows.

    1. The TAG is activated by the Order.
    2. The owner spends an Order from the Order Pool.
    3. The TAG declares Move (Dismount), the Pilot is placed B2B with the TAG-profile and the TAG-profile counts as not having been activated.

    If the TAG is Possessed the the TAG is cannot be activated by the original owner, so the Pilot is prevented from Dismounting.

    If the TAG is IMM then it cannot declare Move and so the Pilot is prevented from Dismounting. The Pilot doesn't exist on the table until AFTER Move is declared by the Trooper (which can't do that because it is IMM).

    IMM-1, IMM-2 and Isolated apply to the Trooper. RAW both the Pilot and the TAG are the same Trooper. Technically your Expelled Pilot was a Trooper in the IMM-1 state and therefore cannot (RAW) "My pilot pushes some buttons, survives some ARO's, and declares Mov to Mount the TAG". However, that's completely unintuitive and so no-one plays like that.

    The issue is that TAGs are not Motorcycles. The TAG is actually the Trooper not just some equipment that is Mounted and Dismounted. They really need to rewrite the rules so that they work like AI Motorcycles.

    If a Zondnautica ISO then both the Zondnaught and the Zondmate will be ISO after a Dismount. If you ISO a Zondnaught you do not ISO the Zondmate, but if it Mounts then the Zondnautica is ISO. This is the only sane way to play it.

    If a TAG is Isolated then both it and its Pilot is Isolated. If only the Pilot is Isolated then only the Pilot is, the TAG is not. But if the Pilot mounts the TAG then the TAG becomes Isolated.

    Tl;dr treat the TAG like an AI Motorcycle that isn't G-Sync and can't spend Orders.
     
  19. Ogid

    Ogid Well-Known Member

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    That's the unintuitive detail about this mechanic. You normally expect the pilot being the main profile, but in this case is the TAG; it's a odd design choice, but in this case it makes sense. When a TAG is designed the part that is always going to be included is the TAG, so the pilot rules are "subordinated" to the TAG instead of the other way around. The big machine is the one that generate the order and the "main profile", and then they give extra details with the manned, pilot, ejection system, remote presence, remote pilot… doing it that way in the future the design is more flexible is they want to créate a TAG with no pilot or with a pilot and 2 gunners.

    However it's the same model with 2 profiles and these 2 profiles may coexist so the states create some weird interactions. RAW when talking about pilots/remote pilots (operators just purge themselves before ejecting) is 2 parts of the same profile, so unless there are some stated "firewall" in the rules the states are going to affect them.

    This cases as I read them,
    Possession cannot actívate the pilot; with possession you must actívate the alternative possession profile (which control the TAG), to declare move (dismount) you have to actívate the pilot profile (something that possession doesn't allow).
    Gotcha is one of these really weird scenarios where an state is going to affect the pilot, but it's a very situational one that is going to be really rare in a game. In your active turn that just cannot happens (if you are INM, the pilot cannot dismount, if the pilot profile is activated the TAG generates no ARO), and in reactive turn that needs the pilot outside the TAG (which is less than ideal).
    Oblivion/Isolated is the same case; if one of the two is isolated, it affect both.

    In this cases if the TAG is IMM and isolated, when the pilot is forced to be placed he suffers the same effects (but in this case isolated is ignored for the Morat rules).
    Only 1 profile is active in one particular moment, you cannot declare orders or AROs with the TAG profile while dismounted, neither the TAG generate AROs when the pilot actívate.
    Total Control would be ilegal as the pilot is not mounted.
    This is just an overlook (or maybe a reminiscence of other rules iteration), the rules clearly states that the order is generated by the TAG, not by the pilot. That line should be "A TAG with an expelled Pilot generates orders normally" or something like that. Good catch!
    This cannot happens, both or neither are in IMM-1

    When you mount the profile actívate is the TAG, so you can be controlled there. right.
    But if you are controlled, then you cannot activate that trooper per rules of possessed, which also include the pilot profile (so you cannot dismount)
     
  20. Ogid

    Ogid Well-Known Member

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    A detail about this, when you declare dismount the whole order is performed by the pilot profile. With the described sequence the TAG would trigger AROs. It would be more like this:
    1. A player declare that the TAG is going to be activated by that order
    2. Player remove order
    3. Declare Move(Dismount) using the pilot profile, this places the pilot model in b2b with the TAG without activating the TAG (so no ARO), any model that can see the pilot can declare an ARO versus him.
    EDIT: TAG-profile counts as not having been activated.
    didn't notice that part. You got right that the TAG doesn't generate AROs, but it's more correct say that it never actívate, instead of the tag profile is activated but it prevents AROs
     
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