1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Xenotech deployment question

Discussion in '[Archived]: N3 Rules' started by Romulas, Oct 20, 2018.

  1. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    12,018
    Likes Received:
    15,302
    Does the Xenotech have Ghost: Synchronised while it is still in your list but not on the table? Is it possible for a unit to have a Game State before it enters play? Can you have the Xenotech synchronised to an undeployed model?
     
    BLOODGOD likes this.
  2. Tongfa

    Tongfa ULTRA INSTINCT UKR

    Joined:
    May 6, 2018
    Messages:
    351
    Likes Received:
    325
    Another question, if I have a Medium Infantry with Forward Deployment Level 2, can he still be out of the DZ and synced with the Xenotech. My confusion is because the Xenotech (who is deployed in my DZ) is still within his zone of control, are they still counted as synced?

    Therefore, could I declare a "move-move" with my Xenotech holder, idling with the synced Medium Infantry Xenotech holder who is 8" from my DZ, whilst the Xenotech does his normal 4-4 move?

    Attached picture describing issue.
     

    Attached Files:

  3. Arkhos94

    Arkhos94 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2017
    Messages:
    1,572
    Likes Received:
    1,502
    Yes you can. I do it all of the time with my moran. You deploy 19.99 cm out of your DZ with the xenotech inside. Everyone fulfill its own deployement rules so no problem
     
    Tongfa likes this.
  4. Tongfa

    Tongfa ULTRA INSTINCT UKR

    Joined:
    May 6, 2018
    Messages:
    351
    Likes Received:
    325
    Cool beans. Thanks.
     
  5. SilverSpoon

    SilverSpoon New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2019
    Messages:
    31
    Likes Received:
    2
    @HellLois we need your help because it's difficult situation))
     
  6. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
    Infinity Rules Staff Warcor

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2017
    Messages:
    7,331
    Likes Received:
    14,817
    No, the comma just indicates that it's subordinate clause, not that there is a sequence. You'd still need the comma (or 'and' as in your example) even if it were a sequence.

    Alternatively, deploy it synched an avoid a bunch of completely avoidable rules questions?
     
  7. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    12,018
    Likes Received:
    15,302
    As you say, deploying synched is required, but since the Xenotech doesn't actually have Ghost: Synchronised until it's on the table and has gained the Civevac state, you don't have any legs to stand on to keep it in reserve together with another model as if it was an Auxbot.
     
  8. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
    Infinity Rules Staff Warcor

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2017
    Messages:
    7,331
    Likes Received:
    14,817
    Then you can't deploy it at all.
     
  9. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    12,018
    Likes Received:
    15,302
    You're going to have to explain that in much greater detail.

    "The Xenotech will be deployed in Civevac state . . . " is fairly clear that deploying it is your only option, no? What I'm saying is that it doesn't have the state until it is deployed, much like how a trooper isn't prone until deployed and much like TO it gains the state when deploying. However, as you noted, deploying it without also adding the civevac state isn't an option.
     
  10. daszul

    daszul Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 11, 2018
    Messages:
    732
    Likes Received:
    876
    So you deploy your Camo troopers as models, and then change them to a camo marker?
    I guess not.
    You deploy them already in marker state.
    So why should this be any different from deploying in Civevac state?

    The moment you deploy it, it is g:synced.
    So you have to deploy it together with its controller as if they where a single trooper.
     
    Robock likes this.
  11. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
    Infinity Rules Staff Warcor

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2017
    Messages:
    7,331
    Likes Received:
    14,817
    Again, you don't deploy it, and then have it enter the state. You deploy it, directly in the state. It's right there in your bolded text.

    This is the same as Camo or Prone states, there is no point at which the trooper has been deployed without being in the state:
    Not 'to deploy, and then gain the Camouflaged state', but deploying directly in the state.

    Please note that I'm not arguing against clearer wording, or claiming that the wording is completely unambiguous, but this is taking the p*ss.
     
  12. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    12,018
    Likes Received:
    15,302
    To be perfectly honest, IJW, I'm feeling the same way about your explanations. Taking the piss that is. I don't see why you need to add a stop or paus or "in between" when deploying, the Xenotech will be deployed directly in the state - but it will not have any of the effects of the state until it is affected by the state and I simply do not see how it can be affected by a Game State prior to entering the game table. The distinction is very mechanically consistent and I'm frankly terrified at the possibilities of broken interactions possible if Game States are allowed to be active on models prior to deploying them.

    Or to put it really bloody simple:
    Xenotech is a civilian that you stick on the table together with a Civevac marker and in zone of control of any one unit capable of controlling a Civevac which is the host. There is no other relationship between them.
     
    BLOODGOD and SilverSpoon like this.
  13. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
    Infinity Rules Staff Warcor

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2017
    Messages:
    7,331
    Likes Received:
    14,817
    OK, let's try and rewind a bit. I let my irritation get the better of me, and I apologise for my language.

    I think this is extremely dubious. In my opinion, you are adding an 'after' that does not exist in the rules text that we've been given.

    For an HVT, I agree 100%.

    In case we're misunderstanding each other, could you say when you think the Xenotech can be placed? You appear to be saying that it has to be placed in a player's 'main' step of the Deployment Phase.

    Yes, there might be unforeseen interactions. But are you seriously saying that you wouldn't let a Prone S2 trooper deploy in a space less than 40mm high? That's the kind of thing I'm referring to when it comes to deploying directly in a state.
     
    daszul likes this.
  14. Diphoration

    Diphoration Well-Known Member
    Warcor

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2018
    Messages:
    1,349
    Likes Received:
    2,533
    As to not create another thread on Xenotech deployment rule, here is another question on the Xenotech deployment that came up in one of our recent tournament: "Can I deploy the Xenotech within my ZoC or does it have to be in base to base?"

    As per my reading of the rules, I think it needs to be placed in base to base, but I'd like to see if I am missing something.

    Here is the Xenotech deployment rule in the ITS document (red for emphasis on my question):
    https://assets.infinitythegame.net/downloads/itsrules/season10/en/v1.0/season10.pdf
    During the Deployment Phase, the Xenotech will be deployed in the CivEvac state, Synchronized with a trooper that meets the requirements to declare the Synchronize Civilian Skill.

    Here is the requirements for the Synchronize Civilian Skill:
    http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Civilian_Rules#Synchronize_Civilian
    REQUIREMENTS
    • Only models and not markers can perform this Common Skill. Any Marker which declares Synchronize Civilian is automatically revealed.
    • Troopers must be in base to base contact with the targeted Civilian to declare Synchronize Civilian.
    • The targeted Civilian cannot be in a CivEvac state with an enemy model.
    • A model cannot declare this Common Skill if any of the following is true:
     
  15. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    12,018
    Likes Received:
    15,302
    I'll try and reciprocate, for sure.

    I am saying that I consider the only way to deploy the Xenotech is as if it was a trooper in your army list, even if it is considered a civilian, since the Xenotech lacks any skills which would inform deployment restrictions or allowances. I'm saying that a model which has deployment skills (e.g. TO Camo) or common abilities that can be used during deployment (e.g. Prone) to be perfectly capable of deploying with those active without first deploying and then activating them. However, a TO Camo model isn't in TO Camo state prior to being deployed - you deploy in TO camo not while TO camoed.
    Since the Xenotech doesn't have Ghost: Synchronised, it will not be until it is actually part of the game and thus able to have a Game State that it will have the Ghost: Synchronised skill - at which point mechanically it is too late to have it "tag along" any delayed deployment skills or routines of its host.

    Practically this has little difference other than in the case of the trooper put in "reserve", troopers that are not deployed during the deployment phase (e.g. Airborne Deployment) and troopers with random abilities that are rolled for during deployment (which I don't think there are any due to FAQ on Booty etc.) which would've influenced which trooper you want to tie the Xenotech to. So on a scale of storm in a tea cup, the tea cup is moderately sized and far from an ocean.

    I mean, I can see the logic you use when you say that it works identically to Servant or Synchronised with regards to timing, but I don't see eye to eye on the matter of when it is possible to enter the state since "not on table" -> "not capable of game state". The run on effect of this not being the case as far as I can see is that Dead does not clear any states and states like Immobilised do not have cancellation clauses for entering Dead state - which I'm sure is very relevant in Hunting Party.

    @Diphoration I'm fairly certain the answer is that it has to be in Zone of Control because you don't need to declare the skill Civevac, so it doesn't have to be in BtB. Deploy it in ZoC as per the restrictions of Civevac state.
     
    daszul, BLOODGOD and ijw like this.
  16. Robock

    Robock Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2017
    Messages:
    1,234
    Likes Received:
    852
    i think it was vaguely answered above, that you can Fordward Deploy almost 8" away; with the Xeno in your DZ in ZoC. But there was no rule support presented and your post is more precise including rule quote. So we'll see how others respond to this. I know I always played it ZoC, it does not mean I played it right.
     
  17. daszul

    daszul Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 11, 2018
    Messages:
    732
    Likes Received:
    876
    Wow, thank you @ijw and @Mahtamori - a rules discussion with dialog and progress! I like this!
    So with TO camo it is activated while deployment, not before, but before being placed on the table.
    But they get the Civevac state while being deployed - because they get deployed in that state.
    So why do you think they get the G-Sync skill not at the same time,
    but only when/after/while being on the table?
    The rules even say that it gets deployed "Synchronized with a trooper"
    - how is that possible without that skill?
     
  18. Diphoration

    Diphoration Well-Known Member
    Warcor

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2018
    Messages:
    1,349
    Likes Received:
    2,533
    The thing that made me question is because it clearly mentions that it needs to "meets the requirements to declare the Synchronize Civilian Skill".

    The base to base requirement appears at the same level of rule requirement as the other requirements (such as not being impetuous, not being a marker, not having multiple civilians)

    We obviously can't wave away the requirement that the trooper can't be impetuous or a marker, but it seems like a common thing to wave away the other requirement about being in base to base contact.

    -

    I'm really not a big fan of the Xenotech rule and I see it as a simple 2-3 order sink. Our group has been playing that it is ZoC until we started questioning the rules. I find that the ZoC deployment simply makes me take a warcor prone on a roof at maximum distance, and sink 2 orders on Xenotech and call it a day.

    While this works, I find it uninteresting, but more importantly, we try and stick as close as we can to the actual rule to avoid disparity between our local games and make tournament running much smoother.
     
  19. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    12,018
    Likes Received:
    15,302
    It is a matter of mechanical minutia. My answer to your specific question of when/while/after is; "it doesn't practically matter"
    (Keep in mind that CivEvac is a common skill and state that is just as available as Prone, the issue here is that Synchronised is an effect of that)

    The real question is "can I hold the Xenotech back during deployment together with trooper XYZ?" to which I answer "no, it's not synched to XYZ yet and doesn't have any of the effects of CivEvac active yet". Again, to keep in mind here is that this is not a case of "when deploying", but rather you making use of a Game State's effects potentially tens of minutes ahead of actually deploying either miniature onto the game table while you wait for your opponent to deploy their miniatures.
     
  20. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    12,018
    Likes Received:
    15,302
    Okay, I get what you mean.

    Let me do some serious rules wrangling/bending. *ahem*

    The specific bullet point in question requires your trooper to be in base to base contact with the "targeted civilian". When deploying the Xenotech, the Xenotech is never "targeted" and as such the bullet point is defunct and can be ignored

    Does that work for you? (And yeah, I don't like the non-interactive nature of Xenotech, either, since your opponent can't really do anything to prevent the action)
     
    Diphoration likes this.
  • About Us

    We are a company founded in 2001 in Cangas (Spain), and devoted to design and manufacture games and figures. Our main product, Infinity the Game, was born with the ambition to satisfy the most demanding audience, offering the best quality.

     

    Why are we here?

     

    Because we are, first and foremost, players.

  • Quick Navigation

    Open the Quick Navigation