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[Deployment] When are Fireteams created ?

Discussion in '[Archived]: N3 Rules' started by eciu, May 7, 2019.

  1. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    So when are fireteams created during the deployment ?

    a) At the end of deployment phase ? (after reserve model)
    b) As soon as all member of (possible) link team are deployed ?
    c) After deployment but before reserve model (unless reserve is also part of fireteam) ?
    d) After both players fully deploy ?
     
  2. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
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    There is no clear timing specified so a+b
     
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  3. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    Well this is a "bit" ambigious answer....

    Can I create a fireteam of Fusiliers AFTER I've deployed my reserve Uhlan ?
     
    #3 eciu, May 7, 2019
    Last edited: May 7, 2019
  4. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
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    Can you be less aggressive?

    You can form the link team after you deploy its last member who can be the reserve model that be attached to two potential link teams in the battlefield, as I clearly said there is no specific timing mentioned in the rules (unfortunately) and players are expected to have a reasonable behaviour in making the fireteams.
     
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  5. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    Whops, if so sorry for that.
    Well I'm asking as I've faced that exact problem. I was forming links (all) somewhere after reserve mini, and my opponent pointed it to me that in his opinion I can only do that IF reserve mini is part of link team.

    While normally it's not a big deal in our meta, that can (and will be ) a problem on some bigger tournaments (different playstyles).

    That's why I'm asking if there is (or someoen came up with) some more robust solution/timing/ruling.
     
  6. tox

    tox SorriBarai
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    There is no proper timing in the rules.
    The only thing to remember is that once the Fireteam is created, it cannot be "edited".
    You can't place 4 Fusiliers in Fireteam and then add a 5th one. You create the Fireteam when all of the 5 men are on the table.

    But there is nothing that prevent you to create Fireteams when you put your Reserve model on the table, for what i can see
     
  7. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
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    I am afraid there is no exact timing worked in the rules of fireteam creation...
     
  8. solkan

    solkan Well-Known Member

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    The fireteam rules say:
    • During the Deployment Phase, placing a Team Leader Marker (F: TEAM LEADER), or equivalent, next to one of the troopers that meet the Requirements of this rule.
    In that moment, the player can perform a Deployment Phase Coherency Check relative to the appointed Team Leader.
    And the coherency check says:
    In the Deployment Phase, the player can check Coherency, measuring the Zone of Control of the Reference Trooper to be sure the rest of the linked troopers are inside it.

    After having checked Coherency, the player can adjust the placement of those troopers so they are all inside the Zone of Control.

    However, this adjustment is not allowed regarding the last figure kept back as reserve, nor during the deployment of that model (or models if any rule, Special Skill, piece of Equipment... allows to kept back several in reserve).
    That appears to be at least discouraging waiting until your reserve troopers to form the fireteam, since you’ll be forbidden making adjustments at that point.
     
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  9. Papa Bey

    Papa Bey Clueless Wonder. Still.

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    The FAQ does/used to specify that a reserve model had to be the Fire team leader if joins a fire team.

    So I'd presume that a fire team must be created before reserves are committed unless the reserve model is part of said team. If you actually have two teams that are nearly complete, I'd guess that's a bonus for the reserve model.
     
  10. toadchild

    toadchild Premeasure

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    I view it like making a model prone - if you want a game state marker attached to a trooper, place it at the same time you place the trooper.
     
  11. n21lv

    n21lv SymbioHate

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    We have a follow-up question, which may or may not make Strategos L3 a much more useful skill.

    Assume the following: Player A has finished their Deployment save for Last Model and has some troops eligible for Fireteam creation. Player B has a troop with Strategos L3. When is the last opportunity for Player A to create a Fireteam during Deployment?
     
  12. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

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    Creation of a Fireteam says you do it like so: "During the Deployment Phase, placing a Team Leader Marker (F: TEAM LEADER), or equivalent, next to one of the troopers that meet the Requirements of this rule."

    Initiative and Deployment specifies the Deployment phase has 4 parts, Play One Deployment, Player 2 Deployment, Player 1 Last Model, and Player 2 Last Model.

    While Strategos does change the order of phases in this rule, since you can form a fireteam at any point during the deployment phase, RAW you can form a fireteam even when your opponent is deploying.
     
  13. n21lv

    n21lv SymbioHate

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    I think you're wrong.
    Q: Can you pick your AD: Parachutist location at any time during the Deployment Phase of any player?
    A: No. You have to choose the location during the Deployment Phase of the owning player.
    (http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Initiative_and_Deployment#FAQ)

    Based on this FAQ answer, I would say that you actions allowed during Deployment Phase can only be performed during your own Deployment Phase. @ijw?
     
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  14. toadchild

    toadchild Premeasure

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    I stand by my earlier comment that if you want to deploy a model with a game state marker attached, you have to place the marker when deploying that particular model.
     
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  15. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

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    The FAQ for Parachutist suggests a specific timing in the Deployment Phase. There is no comparable FAQ for any other rule. If they intended that to be the reading, the FAQ should have been more general.

    Could you explain the reasoning behind this? Pretty much all of the rules about deployment/stuff before players are spending orders are pretty loose.
     
  16. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
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    For what it's worth, they use identical 'During the Deployment Phase' wording.

    Parachutist:
    • During the Deployment Phase, mentally divide the edges of the play area down the middle into eight segments (two on each side).
    • Then, choose one of these segments and write it down in secret for later verification. For the rest of the game, all your troopers with the AD: Parachutist Special Skill deploy through that segment of the play area's edge.

    Fireteams:
    • During the Deployment Phase, placing a Team Leader Marker (F: TEAM LEADER), or equivalent, next to one of the troopers that meet the Requirements of this rule.

    I've suggested that CB stop using that wording because of the four sub-divisions of the Deployment Phase, but with the FAQ as precedent I suggest only forming a Fireteam when you could deploy a trooper. Note that this means you can form all your Fireteams when deploying your reserve (even if the reserve isn't in a Fireteam), but as per the Coherency Check rules this will mean that you don't get to measure or adjust anyone's positions:

    However, this adjustment is not allowed regarding the last figure kept back as reserve, nor during the deployment of that model (or models if any rule, Special Skill, piece of Equipment... allows to kept back several in reserve).​
     
  17. toadchild

    toadchild Premeasure

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    I agree that the rules for deployment phase timing are underspecified.

    The deployment coherency rules actually clarified the timing quite a bit, because they explicitly allow you to rearrange models during your main deployment phase, but during your reserve phase the only model you can move is the reserve. This gives us the broad rule that during a phase you can rearrange the models that you placed during that phase.

    It's not necessarily clear when a model that you have to roll to deploy for (infiltration, impersonation) gets locked in.

    The Parachutist ruling suggests that when you "deploy" your first parachutist, you have to pick the landing zone. So you could change your mind up until the end of your main deployment phase, or decide during your reserves if the parachutist was your reserve model.

    • During the Deployment Phase, players may deploy one or more of their troopers Prone by placing a Prone Marker beside them.
    I'm assuming that this has the same timing restrictions as actually placing the model. I don't think it would go over very well if, at the end of your reserve deployment, I put a bunch of prone markers next to troops you carefully set up ARO coverage against.

    • During the Deployment Phase, placing a Team Leader Marker (F: TEAM LEADER), or equivalent, next to one of the troopers that meet the Requirements of this rule.
    In that moment, the player can perform a Deployment Phase Coherency Check relative to the appointed Team Leader.

    Unlike prone, this doesn't use the keyword "deploy"; it just says that you place it "during the deployment phase". However, just to maintain general consistency with the rest of the sequence, I prefer to assume that you can't add this marker to a model that is already "locked" by the completion of a phase.



    As an aside - maybe I'm not a sufficiently tricky/technical player, but I've never had a case where I'm actually debating which models to put into the fireteam such that I need to delay the marker placement until the last moment. For me this is less a question of mechanics and more one of etiquette and sportsmanship.
     
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  18. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
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    Minor correction - in the reserve step you can't adjust anyone's position.

    However, this adjustment is not allowed regarding the last figure kept back as reserve, nor during the deployment of that model (or models if any rule, Special Skill, piece of Equipment... allows to kept back several in reserve).​
     
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  19. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

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    I notice this significantly more in some armies than others. It's happened in a bunch of my Spiral games, but never in any other armies I've played.
     
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  20. Bobman

    Bobman MERC

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    Its becoming more relevant with the myriad of Fireteam options now available.
     
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