In this case, I'm thinking of Retreat!, Loss of Lieutenant, and Religious. When a player is in Retreat!, they are also automatically in Loss of Lieutenant, which would imply that their Religious troops become irregular (since Religious troops are irregular in Loss of Lieutenant situations). Yet, there's a chart that seems to contradict this in the rules, showing that Religious troops are regular during Retreat!. Is there a way that you guys parse this?
The most specific rule (in this case, the chart in Religious) should take precedence. Since Religious explicitly provides an order type for religious units in Retreat (in spite of Retreat also inflicting LoL), it takes precedence.
If you have a specific question, please make the title of the post reflect that, instead of being overly broad. In this case I agree with you that the interaction is poorly explained, but I agree with @meikyoushisui that since they have a helpful chart that shows all possible states and what sorts of orders models generate, it is ultimately clear.
I dunno, to me, it makes it unclear, because it comes off as if the people who wrote the Religious rules didn't talk to the people who wrote the Retreat rules, or vice versa, or one of these rules was just copy-pasted from N2 without a care. It also begs the question of what happens if you're in Retreat but your lieutenant is also dead - are Religious troops regular or not?
As they said, specific rules > general rules. In the case of rules with the same "priority level" then the interactions should be stated. In this case the chart does that job. This interaction in particular is very tricky for the wording used: So a Religious Troop in LoL that enter in Retreat would be Irregular.
Read the ijw quote again. Religious ignore the full retreat rules, so they ignore the fake LoL imposed for that rule. In retreat if the Lt is alive he is still the Lt, but the troops are too busy running for their lives to listen. Religious ignore the fake LoL so they can "listen" the Lt. If the Lt is dead they ignore the Retreat state again (so they can attack and so on) but as the Lt is dead they are in LoL.
As @Ogid said, the difference is whether they are in LoL because the Lieutenant is dead, or if they are acting as though they are in LoL because the Retreat rules are telling them to. Again, I'm not defending the way this is written, but it's resolvable under the rules text when using the examples as a guide.
It would be good if it was made explicitly clear, however. I move that @Ogid 's explanatory post be added to the Unsolved Question thread: Q: What happens to Religious troops when in Retreat? A: Religious troops in Retreat ignore the Loss of LT caused by the Retreat state, so are Regular if their LT is still alive. If their LT has been killed, making the army in Loss of Lieutenant in addition to being in Retreat, Religious troops are Irregular.
Specific over general is hog. All that leads to is arguments on what's more specific since CB hasn't structured their rules with such rank. Read the rules and accommodate all of them as much as is possible. As @Ogid wrote, LOL due to Retreat means that a unit immune to Retreat will be immune to the effects if Retreat, LOL being one effect of Retrsat. Keep in mind that the army itself is not immune to Retreat and having a functional Liuetenant is a function of the army and not the model itself, meaning a Veteran or Religious LT will still not generate an LT order during Retreat.
I think it's one of those times where 'considered to be' isn't the same as actually being. But yeah, not well laid out I agree.
Why? And why is it the case that specific rules trump general? Is that in the rules somewhere? And another question on top of that, since a player in Retreat! doesn't get Impetuous orders, does a Religious troop get to ignore that? It's very unclear.
This case is very tricky but it's clear if you see it this way: The rules of retreat are like a global debuff with 2 parts, the general rules and the retreat state. Religious ignore the whole debuff, so they just ignore these rules (which include the fake LoL state) And as they ignore the fake LoL, they care about the true LoL; which is determined by the state of the Lt. The no impetuous phase is a rule inside the retreat rule, so they should also ignore it and get their impetuous orders. It's not 100% clear tho as it is talking about the phase which belong to the player, but as it also ignore the fake LoL which affect the whole army, it's kind of safe to assume that they would also get their impetuous phase.
Then why is this never talked about or explained everywhere? This whole segment of the rules appears to be half-baked and poorly edited.
I'm not sure if this is actually codified but it's the basis of any permissive ruleset. If a rule B gives an exception to rule A, and rule C gives an except to rule B, Rule C has the highest precedence. Otherwise the whole thing breaks down.
thanks for your opinion, BUT i specialy asked these question & not a single time personaly to @HellLois. the answer was: just as retreat comes, the Religious troops keeps being Regular. despite the state of their former Leiutenant. also your logic about "fake LoL" is wrong - cause Leiutenant cant be "alive or dead" in retreat! - there is NO leiutenant in Retreat! at all. nobody generate Lt order, nobody command.
Always glad to help The thing is, in retreat there is a Lt, but there is also a enforced LoL state, check this line from retreat rules: Also the chart say that they are irregular in standard LoL, but regular in Retreat, and the only way to explain that is the way I did because religious troops don't have anything to avoid being irregular in LoL but this. So, what other explanation? If you can quote HellLois or he shows up and clarify this, it will be great. But what you propose doesn't make much sense. Also, If he is alive, I see no reason for the Lt not generating his Lt order. If the Lt itself is in retreat state then he can only use it for running faster anyway
