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Wildcards (not) replacing all Fireteam core Troopes

Discussion in '[Archived]: N3 Rules' started by Hachiman Taro, Jun 2, 2019.

  1. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    I don't have a problem with my opponents doing that. And that's not pushing it, by Infinity's standards. Symbiomates are pushing it. Posthumans costing 10 points is pushing it. Ghazi are pushing it. Frenzy discount for heavy infantry that's gonna be in a fireteam is pushing it.

    Yadu fireteams not having any Yadu on them isn't even on the scale.
     
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  2. Ogid

    Ogid Well-Known Member

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    Well, even with the fireteam core rules that would be legal because Asura is a model listed in that special fireteam. The ones pushing would be the ones trying to force-ban a seemingly legal fireteam.
    But things can be solved talking, and if after that there are still doubts about it; well, we have the forums for a reason.
     
  3. Cry of the Wind

    Cry of the Wind Well-Known Member

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    If that is where someone draws the line to not play me in Infinity then I don't think they will like many of the other 100% legal but totally unfair practices the game currently has. They are getting better in some ways but worse in others. I'm sure N4 will be great for 5 minutes till we find at its bugs too...

    Honestly reading this whole thing is sad for me. It changes almost nothing in the game of significance that I have seen beyond Dashat fireteams getting cheap Rui Shi bonuses. It is how this has been announced and implemented that bothers me. You can't make army changing rules announcements via Podcast and quickly edit the game wiki to reflect them. Proper way to do that would be either wait till the next FAQ/Errata or have some more widely publicized method of updating the community. I never heard of that Podcast before and if I wasn't on the forums or in some FB communities I would have had no idea of the change till someone pointed it out to me.

    Anything that changes how the game is played in any manner should not be done in this way. Waiting for the next FAQ/Errata should be the norm and if it is something game breaking release an early FAQ/Errata on the issue. Sneaky hearsay updates are not fun to deal with as a customer.
     
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  4. Benkei

    Benkei Well-Known Member

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    That's for a Core fireteam only AFAIK? That third FT is illegal because no Haris, you could have the Haris skill in the Yadu
     
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  5. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    This.

    There is no reason that Shakti + a Rudras + a Samekh aren't a valid Fireteam Haris of Yadus.

    The requirements for Haris is that one of the members has the Haris skill and all members are wildcards / can join / counts as members of the Fireteam Haris you are trying to form.

    The requirements for Core means that one of the members of the core must be or count as one of the specified members of the core.

    The new ruling specifies Cores not Haris'.
     
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  6. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    I think for a unit like Rudras, the key is not to think of Fireteams as an "archetype" that you slot units into, but instead to look at the Fireteam and ask "does the fireteam I am about to create satisfy each member's requirements?" and for the Rudras that requirement seem to be that the Fireteam contains a Yadu Trooper (or Shakti) - hence the shortcut of Rudras being a "wildcard" has shortcomings for the following Fireteam:
    Yadu + Yadu + Asuras that you're trying to fill with Rudras + Samekh + Asuras (Haris)
    Yes, the archetype has Yadu in it, but the Rudras seem to be able to join a Yadu Trooper's Fireteam and the Fireteam doesn't contain a Yadu.

    We have, essentially, the following Fireteam restrictions:
    "Can join any Fireteam"
    "Can join Fireteam containing X"
    "Counts as X"
     
  7. Ogid

    Ogid Well-Known Member

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    It says that can join a Yadu fireteam, not a fireteam containing Yadus.
    If we go to the SSS fireteam list we can see what are considered Yadu fireteams, and that special fireteam, even when you replace all the Yadus is still a Yadu fireteam (and the Rudra is even listed there).
    With the rules we have now, it seems legal
     
  8. Benkei

    Benkei Well-Known Member

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    Somebody is doing a really awful job explaining the fireteam rules when we don't even know if that FT is legal or not, to be honest.
     
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  9. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    I beg to differ. There is nothing formally a "Yadu Fireteam", unless you hardline it and consider that the special Fireteams are not, in fact, Yadu Fireteams but Special Fireteams. For me the signifying trait of a Yadu Fireteam is that it contains a Yadu, and that meshes really well with the ruling on Core Fireteams and wildcards.
     
  10. Ogid

    Ogid Well-Known Member

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    I see your point, and It's makes sense thematically, but when you go down to the rules you get this:
    • You have the special fireteam listed in the types of fireteams that Yadu troopers may create
    • You have the rudra listed in that same row as trooper that may join those fireteams
    • There is no rule that says those Yadu fireteam must contain Yadu trooper
    • And even following the more strict Fireteam:Core rules, this would be legal because the Asura is listed in that fireteam.
    I undertand is not 100% clear and a bit odd; However I can't find any specific rule saying that Haris is illegal, but I can find a few rules implying it is legal. So I couldn't say a player "You can't play with that illegal Fireteam"

    That happens when there are undefined terms. If we don't know exactly what a X Fireteam is, then things are legal or not depending on the reader.
    If you interpret that a X fireteam must be listed in those troopers fireteams AND must contain at least one X trooper, then this one is illegal.
    If you interpret that a X fireteam just have to be listed in those troopers fireteams, then this is legal.
     
    #330 Ogid, Jun 15, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2019
  11. CabalTrainee

    CabalTrainee Well-Known Member

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    If that was the case then i could bring in Varuna a machinist into a fusilier fireteam just because a single Kamau joined that team. I don't think that is the intended way to read it. (Machinist can join a Core or Haris of Kamau. Since Kamaus are wildcard i could theoretically make any fireteam a kamau fireteam according to your definition.)

    I'd love to bring the varuna machinist... But i certainly do not think that is legal.
     
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  12. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Very good point.

    The only puritan way I see, then, since fireteams are not called anything formally, is that the only Fireteam a Rudras can join is a non-special fireteam (no Asuras and no Deva, but Wildcards like Samekh are fine as normal/expected)
     
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  13. Ogid

    Ogid Well-Known Member

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    Well, that depend on how you see it.
    You could also puritanily say that the Yudra + Yudra + Asura is Yadu troopers special fireteam:Haris (because it is listed as a special fireteam:Haris in the Yadu trooper row, in the sectorial fireteam lists).

    I mean, that cannot be ruled out. So, i'd give it at least the benefit of the doubt.
     
  14. CabalTrainee

    CabalTrainee Well-Known Member

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    I for one will assume that every fireteam is a yadu fireteam that is mentioned behind the yadu unit entry in the fireteam list. Until i hear otherwise at least. I believe the fireteams are listed behind that unit entry for a reason.

    http://infinitythewiki.com/en/List_of_Fireteams#OperationS_Subsection_of_the_S.S.S.

    Unit
    YADU Troopers, Tactical Assault Teams

    Fireteams
    Duo, Haris, Core, Special

    Special Fireteams

    Special Fireteam: Haris. 2 Yadus + 1 Deva.
    Special Fireteam: Haris. 2 Yadus + 1 Asura.
    Special Fireteam: up to 1 Rudras can join any Yadu Troops Fireteam.
    Special Fireteam. Shakti counts as a Yadu Trooper for Fireteam composition.


    Special are included in there so i assume for now that is legal.
     
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  15. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    Except those aren't actually accurate to what we know from this thread. The new restrictions only apply to Fireteam Cores (Special or regular) not to Haris' or Duos. Further, we know from previous discussions that an Asura + Rudras + Samekh Haris is legal. So instead we have:

    "Wildcard: this trooper can join any Fireteam Core containing an archetypal trooper or can join any Fireteam Haris or Duo provided the Haris/Duo skill, respectively, is present."
    "This trooper can join a Fireteam core which may include an archetypal trooper X and which does include any archetypal trooper; or can join any Fireteam Haris or Duo which includes an archetypal trooper of X and provided the Haris/Duo skill, respectively, is present."
    "This trooper counts as the archetypal trooper X."

    * Archetypal trooper being used to refer to a trooper that appears on the listed Fireteam.

    Basically a Yadu Fireteam is any Fireteam that can potentially include Yadus. A Yadu Core must include at least one archetypal Yadu.
     
  16. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    Agreed, because Fusiliers cannot join a Kamau Core.
     
  17. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Do we? Can you reproduce that proof if someone says "Look, it says right there, 'can join a Yadu Fireteam' and that's not a Yadu Fireteam, it has no Yadu"? That argument is entirely solid unless you can source an official confirmation that it's not meant to work that way.
     
  18. Ogid

    Ogid Well-Known Member

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    Yes, the best definition we have right now a Yadu Fireteam is the Fireteam lists, and this fireteam is listed there.
    However that rule of "a Yadu fireteam must contain a Yadu" is something that you are trying to enforce because it makes sense to you, but that's not what the rules say. So it should be you who proves that this work the way you are defending, not the other way around.
    Can you source an official confirmation that a Yadu fireteam must contain a Yadu?
     
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  19. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    How can I prove that something doesn't exist? That's impossible, hence it is you who are claiming such a rule exist and you need to back that up.

    The rules specify "Special Fireteam: up to 1 Rudras can join any Yadu Troops Fireteam" yet we have no entity that's called a "Yadu Troops Fireteam". We do have a ruling regarding Core Fireteams which states that a "Zuyong Fireteam" has to contain a Zuyong, however, so logical derivation tells us it has to contain a Yadu Troop to be a Yadu Troop Fireteam. Otherwise it's equally valid to claim that it's not a Yadu Troop Fireteam, but an Asuras Special Fireteam which the Rudras can't join.

    This ruling fundamentally changed how we treat Fireteams. Previous to it it was taken for granted that Wildcards and other replacers work 100% like the troop they replaced.

    So again, @inane.imp stated that we have from this thread confirmation that a Yadu-free Haris can still host a Rudras if it contains Deva or Asuras and Wildcard. This should not be too demanding to prove, where in this 16+ page thread this confirmation was given, because I haven't read any such.
     
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  20. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    Except this ruling is specific to Cores.

    Nothing changed with Haris'. Everything we knew previously still holds.
     
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