Hi guys, little confused here, as the rules seem to be contradicting themselves. I assume I am just missing something, hopefully someone can show me where: Do you apply Camo/Mimitisem mods when targeting a enemy trooper with Spec Fire? http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Speculative_Fire The description box says all applicable mods for BS attacks apply The tactical advice box explains that you can bypass them by targeting the ground behind the enemy model, rather than the model itself, implying that yes, you do apply the mods if you target the opposing model. But the clarification FAQ down the bottem for how it interacts with the Targeted State (http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Targeted) says you ignore them, despite the targeted state not ignoring them. From Targeted: So if I'm reading the right, somehow two rules, neither of which allows you to ignore camo/mimitisem by itself, do ignore it when used together. As I said, I assume I am reading something wrong, please advise.
If people want a more concrete example, the situation as it came up in game was that I used a Sat-lock through a sensor to reveal and target a TO Spector hiding behind total cover. I then used a Dakini with light grenade launcher to spec fire on his head. The debate was what the mods on my roll should have been. I was in good range and in a 5 man link, so in theory it should be +3 range, +3 big link, +3 targeted to be hitting on 22's (Had an Aspara giving the Dakini a BS of 13). If I don't ignore his TO it drops to hitting on 16's (still very good, and what we played it as to keep the game moving) or I can aim at the ground behind him and lose out on targeted making it +3 range, +3 big lin, -6 spec fire for flat 13's.
this is utterly incorrect. You do not take "to hit" mods for speculative fire outside of range and the innate spec fire rule. even when off centered the targeted model is the target of the attack and therefore the spculative fire gains the benefits of that state.
So, even though I am targeting a spot on the ground behind an enemy, because the template hits the enemy I get the benifits of the targeted state, is that what you mean?
thats not the right way to think of it. You are targetting the opponent (Primary target) and hitting any other models under the template (secondary targets) However because you are specualtive firing, you do not take visual mods (TO Camo, ODD, Mimetism ect) Because the primary target (to which you measure range) is in the targetted state, you apply its rules So yes, You would have hit on 13s, +3 for link, +3 for range, +3 for Targetted state = 22s
Thats what I thought, but the other player(and one of oour local more experienced players) argued that the previously quoted rules meant that Camo was counted if the template was centered on the model, and we both thought that if I wanted to count targeted the template would have to be centered on his head, not centered behind him. Obliviously from what you're saying that is not the case. Just so I can be sure I have it clear, I pick my primary target, and measure range to it, but I do not have to center the template there, therfore bypassing the camo, but still getting the targeted bonus?
Yes. It's an Entire Order skill, it's -6 to hit and it's B1. That's enough of a penalty without putting Camo, Mimmetism, TO and ODD on top.
I agree with the sentiment, but that is not really the point. I have learned that just because something seem to make sense doesn't mean it seems that way to all people. Especially not the people who write rules, they often have a different logic to you or I. So do you have anything I can point to and say "see this is where it states that camo does not effect spec fire"?
"Speculative Fire: Tactical AdviceSpeculative Fire with Template weapons can avoid MODs by Partial Cover, the CHSpecial Skill, ODD... by placing the Template so it is not centered on the target. You can use Speculative Fire to attack enemy troopers with CH: Camouflage, TO or ODD who are behind a Partial Cover. By placing the center of the Template behind the enemy, you can bypass all MODs from Partial Cover (-3) and TO or ODD (-6), replacing them with one single Speculative Fire MOD (and whatever Range MODs are applicable)." And Targetted: "If a trooper in the Targeted state is chosen as the target of Speculative Fire, then the -6 MODusually applied to that type of Attack is ignored. However, the +3 MOD is still applied." Basically you go, Trooper X is the main target of the attack, Trooper X is Targeted so I benefit from those MODs, I place the template such that it isn't centred on the model like such and therefore don't suffer from the MODs from Camo, ODD and TO. There's nothing in the Targetted rules or in the Speculative Fire rules about not benefiting from the Targetted MODs when the template is not centred, so you still benefit from those MODs. Yes, it would be cleaner if Speculative Fire had the same 'No LOF' trait as Jammer and the MODs that 'No LOF' ignored was specified, but.... *Shrug* Tl;dr you only suffer the MODs from Camo, ODD, TO and Cover if the template is centred; whereas, you gain the benefits of Targeted whatever.
Aside: there's a open question about where templates that are centred on models are placed vertically. A careful reading of the Spec Fire rules suggests that you can opt to centre the template on a target trooper to take advantage in differences of vertical placement between templates placed on the table and those placed over the centre of the main targets base. Doing so, however, would suffer penalties for Camo, ODD, TO and (apparently) Partial Cover. Personally I don't see how that's intended. More normally all instances of Spec Fire are assumed to be off-centred.
Yup, and this is why I'm finding it a bit confusing. I was hoping someone would have been able to point me to something offical that broke it down with no doubts. Knew it was a long shot, but if you don't ask, you never know.
Welcome to Infinity. :) Pretty much there's always doubts. It's whether those doubts are reasonable or not. The way it's played is as @daboarder described. Practically: Spec Fire is never centred on the main target. Spec Fire never suffers Cover, Camo, TO or ODD MODs Spec Fire benefits from Targeted when the Main Target is Targeted The hypothetical case of centring the template on the main target to get vertical placement is not really a thing. But it's allowed by a close reading of the rules.
