I also think the player part has to be a mistake. If we follow them RAW (as we should), that statement is not refering to the model or the equipment but to the state itself and the player, so once a Stratuscloud state is canceled the same player cannot activate that state again. So that would force the player to activate all of his stratusclouds at roughtly the same time. RAW I'd go with a number 4 option: You can have active any number of stratuscloud at any given time (the rule just prevent you to activate it AFTER it is canceled but don't say anything to activate it while other model have it active), but as soon as 1 of them is canceled then you cannot activate any other stratuscloud state, period. You can reload the equipment with baggage if you want, but you just cannot activate the state again. What do I think that is the intended behaviour? (just my guess) They just wanted it to work like Albedo (a one shot 2 turns buff) but giving the player more control over its activation. Albedo doesn't have the disposable trait because the state is placed as soon as the model is deployed and have no other activation trigger, so there is no need to indicate that it only have one use. Stratuscloud, however, can be activated with actions, so they needed something to indicate that you cannot just reactivate it again and again, hence the disposable (1) trait, then they thought, "Ok, now we only have to make it immune to bagage including something in the state that prevent it to be reactivated". They just messed the wording of the state including the player thing, what they would probably wanted to say is: Another way to include that rulling in a less confusing way (imo) would have been putting that rule in the equipment itself instead of in the state, including an extra requirement bullet point like this: Once a model uses this special skill, that model cannot use it again, even if the unloaded state is cancelled. Or they could just have been used that extra bullet point and forget about the disposable(1) trait. TL-DR: We need an official clarification here.
I prefer to read it as referring to that specific models currently activated Stratuscloud state, Kondo'd! Once this state (the Stratuscloud currently activated by the trooper) is cancelled, the player cannot activate it (the Stratuscloud cancelled by the trooper) again. Reload, reactivate, and rejoice!
I agree with the bullet point, probably that is what they want to say. But, why do you think the model is allowed to reactivate the state after it is cancelled? Reload the equipment yeah, there is nothing against it in the rulles, but the point states clearly that the state cannot be activated again.
Because its a new state, activated by the newly reloaded equipment. If you regard the "this state" as refering to stratuscload as a whole, not individual instances of the option 3 one and done senario. In @Ginrei's version each new activation is a new instance of stratuscloud, and the cancellation of other instance in no way effect the new ones.
Because that is true only if you choose to read it that way. I agree "this state" and "it" are not defined terms so are open for interpretation. But I don't think the conclusion you've drawn is correct. I shouldn't draw conclusions from the RAW but it's so hard not to... The Stratuscloud Skill is Disposable (1). We have every reason to believe the skill can be reloaded and reused. I see nothing in the wording of the skill to suggest otherwise. The cancellation clause of the Stratuscloud State doesn't say 'this SKILL', it says "this state". It seems reasonable to me that the skill and state are two different things. Just because we can't reactivate the state after cancelling it, this doesn't mean we can't use the skill again to create a new state.
You are in an state or you aren't. You will be reactivating the same state, not some new Stratuscloud 2.0. The state needs the skill to be activated so there is a link between them, you can reload the equipment, there is no rule against it, and i guess that you could even declare that you are going to use it again because the skill doesn't prevent you to use it again. But when the model try to activate the state again (resolving the effect box of that skill) then the "Once this state is cancelled, the player cannot activate it again." will make that ilegal, so no state for that model.
We have a reloadable piece of equipment that can be used multiple times. We can create lists that contain multiple troopers with this same equipment. Yet you think the cancellation clause for the state that equipment creates pertains to all possible future instances of this state rather than to the individual state that it created? I think you have it backwards.
That logic would mean an Engineer can cancel all Burnt states on the table because the skill says "cancel the Burnt state". But I'm pretty certain we all understand that it's referring to the state of one individual trooper affected. Cancellation A trooper with the Special Skill Engineer (or an equivalent Skill) may cancel the Burnt state by spending one Short Skill of an Order while in base to base contact with the affected trooper and passing a Normal WIP Roll (or the Roll specified by the Special Skill or Scenario that caused the state).
This rule interaction is a bit weird and confusing because RAW you have an skill that can be reloaded and used multiple times but the state can only be activated once. I'm not in the mind of the dudes that wrote the rules but I can try to make a guess: If they wanted it to be used any number of times then the "Once this state is cancelled, the player cannot activate it again." refering to one particular instance of that state will be redundant, of course after one instance of an effect is ended you cannot that same instance, it happens with every single other state in the game. So that line would be missing. If they wanted that state to only be able to be activated once then they would have 2 options: one is limiting the use of the skill, the other is including something in the state that prevent it to get reactivated. They including the Disposable(1) plus the just in case clause of "Once this state is cancelled, the player cannot activate it again." in the state make me think that this what they want. The problem is that "Once this state is cancelled, the player cannot activate it again." is interpreted RAW per player and not per model (as it should) and that's quite weird and the thing that would need to be clarified because it makes no sense that the activation of one stratuscloud will affect to other models in the same army with the same equipment. Now RAW this would work this way: You can use and reload the equipment any number of times After a stratudcloud is cancelled that state cannot be activated (it would need to be clarified that this is intended to happen per model and not per player)
That's streching things too much, You need an Engineer in b2b with that model, spending one short skill and passing a roll and that is refering to that affected trooper. No way to understand that you can cancel every burnt state. What i meant is that if you leave one state and then activate it again, you are in the same state, you are not considered to be in a different state that the first time you activated it. But at the same time the states aren't shared among models of course. The problem here is that "Once this state is cancelled, the player cannot activate it again" refering to the player, but I do think the only problem is that the wording is unfortunate not that they wanted it to work that way.
When you leave the state and enter it again, both states share the same name. But both are different instances of that state. So when rules refer to a state, it must be taken in the context of the situation. The situation being one trooper in one instance of that state. I don't think the term 'player' is the issue. If it said 'model/trooper', we'd be having the same discussion. But instead of saying the state can be used once per player, it's now once per trooper. We're still left with the debate of whether that trooper can reload and reenter the state after the first cancellation. So if the issue isn't with the term player, maybe it's with PLAYERS interpretation of 'this state' The game has a habit of adding completely unnecessary rules all over the place. An effect stipulating the state can't be reactivated after voluntarily choosing to deactivate it, is one such example. But I can understand why they added it in this case, even if it's unnecessary. Of course, you'll never have to convince me the rules need to be rewritten and restructured. I think CB invites this kind of issue upon themselves.
Wait I'm trying to read through everything and I got through a lot of it... Even I understood from the very beginning that you could only: * use stratus cloud once per game. * it would last one full game turn *that you would start the game with it either activated or not * Once its turned it on it can be turned off but cannot be turned on again * once that stratus cloud for that model is used it's gone and it can't be used again... I don't know about the other disposable arguments or any of the other stuff going on here but I do know that that was very very clear to me from the very beginning and you can't just grab a baggage bot or whatever and reloaded all the sudden... So I'm kind of not understanding the argument here cuz it seems pretty clear.. If you want multiple stratusclouds bring multiple Draal... If you want to not have a second game with a decent opponent try to pull that silly shit on the table or started dumb argument about.. BTW... I've gotten some Rules wrong before like Impersonation and Deployment... Once IJW stepped in and said what he had to say I took it is Gospel and left it at that.... You ALL should do the same I don't know what you're arguing about
Well, discusing about game mechanics is not a bad thing, it helps to understand rules well. For example this help me to understand the link between the ability and the state itself (for the weird interaction this have). I agree with the list of conclusions you listed, what puzzles me is that "Once this state is cancelled, the player cannot activate it again" and that's is not rulled by ijw or by any official source (in that case this would be clear for me). The confusing thing is that every other state refer to the model or when it refers to the player, it is quite clear that it is refering to that particular instance in that model. Some examples: Now compare that with That sentence is not refering to any other of the bullet points, nor to that particular instance of stratuscloud so RAW it prevent the player to activate it again. period. Which is WEIRD and can be rulles lawyered in a bad way. Don't get me wrong, the RAI is probably refering to that particular activation and if I play versus a Tohaa player I won't enforce the RAW but the RAI as I didn't enforced the place in the wall exploit before it was FAQed. But these thing are important to be called out so they can be clarified or FAQued. Probably this is the best way to understand that "Once this state is cancelled, the player cannot activate it again" refering to that instance of the state, and hence only applying to that model. So if we go down that route that would mean that: Once this state (refering to that instance of that model) is cancelled, the player cannot activate it again (refering to another instance of that state in that same model). But again that can be interpreted in more than one way and that's bad.
Ok, you seem stuck thinking you can activate it again. Let me try to explain that again because this rule is clearly trying to avoid the players to make use of that equipment more than once per game. The equipment give you an special ability to activate it, and you can also start the game with it activated thanks to the state activation clause that let you activate it during the deployment phase (also supported by the equipment). After you have used it, you could use baggage to recharge the stratuscloud equipment, there is nothing in the rules that prevent that. You can also use the equipment again, there is nothing in the rules against that. But when you try to activate the state again then the "Once this state is cancelled, the player cannot activate it again." will trigger, so you will try to activate it but the rules from the own state will prevent you to activate it (we can talk about if that is refering to the whole army or to that particular model, but what it is clear is that it you cannot activate it again). After that the action is used, the equipment is empty again, but no effect is activated because the cancelation rulles of that state have prevented it. So, the million dollar question: why do you think that you can just ignore the cancelation clause of that state to activate it again?
The question is only the million dollar question if your interpretation is correct. If I could trust and follow the structure the rules are written in, I'd agree with you. But I can't trust what a single bullet point is referring to in this game with it's use of 'it', 'this', 'in addition', or 'them' etc. Not to mention that skills don't have a basic function for the bullets to work from. Here's an example from Total Immunity: EFFECTS When suffering a successful Attack—or being affected by any weapon or rule—that forces any ARM or BTS Rolls, the owner is immune to the special effects of the Special Ammunitions, treating them as Normal Ammunition. In addition, players can choose between making an ARM Roll or BTS Roll, choosing the most advantageous for them. According to the ruling... The second bullet is not referring to the skill itself. It's referring to the bullet point preceding it. Not only that, it's referring to ONLY the part up until the first comma. Under this interpretation a TI trooper hit by a combi rifle can roll the save against their BTS attribute. So for anyone to claim the last cancellation clause of the Stratuscloud state refers to the state as a whole is making an assumption that can't be verified from the rules alone. It could be referring to the bullet point above, this instance of the state, or the state as a whole.
That's the problem, you are not creating a new state, you are trying to activate the same state, yes, another instance of it, but the same state at the end. What it seems to confuse you is that you think that another instance of Statuscloud is treated by the game as a different state. I agree that critical thinking is important but when you take that too far it's not. The 'it', 'this', 'in addition', or 'them' are ok as long as it's not confussing but I agree that in a rulebook less ambiguous the better. In you particular example of TI, i see no problem there, the second bullet is inside of the effect chart of TI so it is clearly refering to that rule, the "in addition" is nesting that sentence with the other, and you got it right! Right now TI troppers may use BTS versus any attack that forces an ARM or BTS roll if that is better for them if they want, so yes, you can use BTS versus a combi rifle. JSA is quite happy with the Karakukis with an efective ARM of 6 versus everything. The rules should be interpreted RAW, and the problem with that clause is that what it say is literally that the player cannot activate it again. It doesn't give any other condition, or refer to a particular model or instance, hence it's a general statement that is applied always as long as the condition is meet (once this state is cancelled). It's not an assumption that can't be verified, is what the rule say. If a clause want to refers to an anterior clause, that clause should include something that links them, if not they are considered independent effects.
But I am not trying to activate the same state. That state was activated with a short skill/ARO, cancelled and is now gone. I'm creating and activating a new state, a different state, using another short skill/ARO. The state just does the same thing, with the same name, as the previous one. I see nothing to suggest the scope of that cancellation clause goes beyond the one instance it refers to. The context is about any one instance. One marker. This isn't proof, but it the scope was beyond that, I'd expect to see rules explaining this clearly. Troopers get markers to indicate states entered or wounds taken. We have order pools to track and expend. What does the player get to show they've entered the trooper equivalent of the Unloaded state? Side question: Do the rules state what happens to an active Stratuscloud if the trooper enters the Dead state? Most markers don't have an AoE effect and only effect the trooper itself as far as I'm aware, so I've never considered this before. Would the argument be that because the cloud follows the trooper around... that once dead it is removed from play with him? Seems a bit loose, but I see nothing else to really indicate it would be removed.
That means if I bring 3 Draals only one can use stratuscloud? Because the limitation of not being able to activate the state is imposed on the player not the model.
