1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Does your opponent know which model an Irregular order belongs to?

Discussion in '[Archived]: N3 Rules' started by Hexa, May 28, 2019.

  1. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2018
    Messages:
    6,040
    Likes Received:
    7,177
    So standard way I do order count at the moment:

    Group 1 has 8 Regular and 2 Irregular order
    Group 2 has 3 Regular and 1 Irregular

    Group 1 consists of these troopers and those 3 Camo markers
    Group 2 consists of those 3 troopers and those 2 Camo markers

    BUT, what you're actually saying is it should be:

    I have 2 combat groups.
    Group 1 has 8 Regular orders in its Order pool
    Group 2 has 3 Regular orders in its Order pool
    I also have 3 Irregular orders

    These 8 troopers and 3 Camo markers are in Group 1.
    These 3 troopers, including this WarCo who owns that Irregular order, are in Group 2, along with those 2 Camo Markers

    Which is exactly what you'd saying if it was:
    8 Regular + 1 Irregular and 3 Regular + 2 Irregular.

    After having read and reread the rules, I can't see why your wrong. Nothing I can find says you must ID which Combat Group an Irregular order belongs to (unless / until you flip it Regular or the trooper is revealed). @ijw am I missing something somewhere?
     
    #21 inane.imp, May 29, 2019
    Last edited: May 29, 2019
    Arkhos94 and ChoTimberwolf like this.
  2. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2018
    Messages:
    6,040
    Likes Received:
    7,177
    Not really, the restriction on marker states and Impetuous troopers solves a bunch of issues. It's one of the better exploit closing rules going.

    Yes. If a trooper isn't in a Marker state or similar state (Holo counts) then you must share all Open information relevant to that Trooper: the status of their Irregular order is Open Information (as per @JoKeR's post) and therefore must be shared.

    Because your troopers are in Marker / Holo states your example works. As soon as they're revealed it stops working.

    Yes, nothing stops you flipping an Irregular order Regular and just letting it sit in your Order pool. This reveals what Combat Group that Irregular order is part of, because the Regular order is added to that Combat Group's Order Pool. You only expend orders at step 2 of the Order Expenditure Sequence.
     
  3. Arkhos94

    Arkhos94 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2017
    Messages:
    1,572
    Likes Received:
    1,502
    I play it more or less like you described... until this topic made me to re-read the rules related to irregular order and order pool and came to this conclusion

    With irregular camo token being a thing in all faction (before it was limited to few faction : ariadna with limited camo troops (volunteer, metro) and hardcase + haqqislam with daylami), thanks to libertos/Hellot, the answer became more important than it was
     
  4. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
    Infinity Rules Staff Warcor

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2017
    Messages:
    7,331
    Likes Received:
    14,817
    It's not concrete, but I would argue that the 'status' part of "The status and expenditure of Irregular Orders is Open Information. Players must place their Irregular Order Markers where all players can see them." would include Combat Groups. Although this would mean that the Lieutenant Order's Combat Group is also known, as it uses identical wording.
     
    BLOODGOD and inane.imp like this.
  5. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2018
    Messages:
    6,040
    Likes Received:
    7,177
    Yeah. Part of the awkwardness of that is what Open Information is hidden by a Marker / Holo state and what Information isn't.

    I was fairly confident that the Combat Group to which the Order belongs is not hidden by a Marker / Holo state but the specific Trooper to whom it belongs is.
     
    BLOODGOD likes this.
  6. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2017
    Messages:
    5,883
    Likes Received:
    11,257
    I think it is a debate in pointlessness combat groups are public information and were the camouflage markers belong to is also public information, regular orders must be visibly distributed in combat groups and for visible models training is open information.

    Not grouping irregular orders into combat groups only adds an extra layer of observation, Group A has 8 models and only 6 regular orders two of the models are camouflage markers, group B has 8 models and 8 regular orders there are two irregular orders on the side....

    Yes, I will acknowledge there are many mind-games to be had with decoys, ambush camouflage and mines/ other camouflaged deployables, but these mindgames were the same when people were adamant camouflage hides the public information of what combat group the model belongs to and was forced to be FAQed.

    Personally I think the camouflage spam armies are powerful enouph without the need to resort to more disinformation.
     
    Papa Bey, Ginrei and xagroth like this.
  7. JoKeR

    JoKeR HAWZA Instructor
    Warcor

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2017
    Messages:
    892
    Likes Received:
    622
    well. in our comunity we always assume that "status & expenditure" overrides this.
    so if some camo uses irregular order from a table - he must clearly say it. even if he "uses" this order to convert it for regular with CT. so in our country we always tell which model/marker spends his irregular order even if it when transformed to regular one & given to another model.
    for example i have a bandit in camouflaged state. if i use his irregular order for himself - i clearly point it to my opponent - these camo uses his irregular order. if i take CT to transfer this irregular order to a regular - i WILL say that i transfer irregular order of THESE camo to a regular one & give it to another trooper.
     
  8. Hexa

    Hexa TAG pilot

    Joined:
    May 20, 2018
    Messages:
    44
    Likes Received:
    13
    It's a pity we don't have a mechanical definition for "status", since that would answer most of this question.

    But if the link between a revealed model and its irregular order is open information then my exemplar shouldn't work, unless Holo1 can somehow claim another troop's order: my opponent would see a warcor generating an Irregular, a monstrucker NOT generating an Irregular, and a camo marker, with one Regular and one Irregular unaccounted for.
     
  9. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2018
    Messages:
    6,040
    Likes Received:
    7,177
    Why don't you say, during Order count, "this Camo marker is Irregular"? Why wait until it is spent or converted?

    Because if 'the status and expenditure is Open Information' requires you to reveal information relevant to the Camo'd trooper when using a Command Token to change an Irregular order Regular then I don't see why it wouldn't be Open Information at all times.

    I argue that you never need to say that the Irregular order belongs to the Bandit so long as the Bandit remains in a Marker state.

    You don't need to say:
    "I spend an Irregular order on this Marker, this Order belongs to that Marker"

    You just need to say:
    "I spend an Irregular order on this Marker"

    Your opponent can then make the conclusion that the Marker contains an Irregular trooper, but that information remains Private.

    This meets the requirements of the Status and Expenditure of an Irregular Order is Open Information [except where it pertains to information relevant to a Marker / Holo].
     
  10. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2018
    Messages:
    6,040
    Likes Received:
    7,177
    Yes that's the crux.

    I argue that the specific (Marker state rules make some otherwise Open Information private) overrides the general (the relationship between an Irregular order and the Trooper that generated it is part of the status of the order and therefore Open Information).
     
  11. Arkhos94

    Arkhos94 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2017
    Messages:
    1,572
    Likes Received:
    1,502
    I re-read the discussion and it looks like we don't have a definitive answer, should I put this in the unsolved question thread ?

    Question : Player A libertos is in camouflaged state. The libertos irregular order has not been used yet. Does player B know wich group the libertos order belong to ?

    Answer :
    - No, irregular orders are not part of the order pool (and so not identified as part of a group) and the camo marker irregular status is private. As long as the order is not spent, player B does not know which trooper and which group it belongs too
    - Yes, the 'status' part of "The status and expenditure of Irregular Orders is Open Information. Players must place their Irregular Order Markers where all players can see them." would include Combat Groups. Although this would mean that the Lieutenant Order's Combat Group is also known, as it uses identical wording. (thanks @ijw)
     
    inane.imp and ChoTimberwolf like this.
  12. Hexa

    Hexa TAG pilot

    Joined:
    May 20, 2018
    Messages:
    44
    Likes Received:
    13
  13. Arkhos94

    Arkhos94 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2017
    Messages:
    1,572
    Likes Received:
    1,502
    Added to the unsolved question list
     
  14. Marduck

    Marduck Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2017
    Messages:
    590
    Likes Received:
    1,306
    They already stated in a FAQ that the group a camo marker belongs to is open information.

    So you always know which combat group a trooper belongs to. How could that be private info ?
     
  15. Arkhos94

    Arkhos94 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2017
    Messages:
    1,572
    Likes Received:
    1,502
    You know which group every camo marker belong to. I agree, that's the FAQ.

    But it's not enough here :
    • You don't know which trooper the order belong too (if the trooper is camoed, as long as I don't spend it) => no way to know which group the order belong too this way
    • You don't know of a camo marker regular/irregular status (as long as it's not relevant to an action)
    • Irregular orders are not part of the order pool => no way to know it this way either
    RAW related to both this point have been quoted above.

    So even with FAQ, RAW are quite clear : there is no way to link and irregular order to a specific pool (edit : group not pool) as long as it's not spent (not a problem for me because I spend my order, but I'm curious to know the RAI on this)
     
    #35 Arkhos94, Jun 7, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2019
    xagroth likes this.
  16. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2017
    Messages:
    5,883
    Likes Received:
    11,257
    I have to point out that the FAQ about camouflage and combat groups was made to stop players abusing the private information tag to hide on which combat group the camouflage markers belonged to and I would suspect that using the private tag to hide on which combat group, not order reserve, irregular orders belong to would fall on the same category.
     
    Robock and xagroth like this.
  17. Ogid

    Ogid Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2018
    Messages:
    914
    Likes Received:
    755
    Good to know it is added to the thread, I’ve been rereading the rules for this topic and it’s not as clear as I thought. My reading if someone is interested:

    First, we generate orders: As described: regular order to the respective order pools, one order pool per combat group, irregular and Lt are set aside with no relation with any combat group (let’s call this a pile) and impetuous next to the models.

    Non deployed models don’t add their orders to the pool/pile and are private info.

    Marker states (IMP1/2, CAMO, HOLO2) do add their order to the pool/pile. HOLO1 is not a marker state but the trooper info is private info so for this it’d work the same.

    So far, so good.


    Then we hit this “The status and expenditure of Regular Orders/Special Lieutenant Order/Irregular Order is Open information. Player must place their regular order markers where all players can see them”

    As @Hexa pointed before, the problem is that “status” sounds fancy but it’s not defined as far as I know, so now the pandora’s box of wild theories is open (aka, for players that have no camo in his army this clearly means GIMME ALL INFO, Ariadna players aren’t so sure about that reading…)

    So, I’m try to squeeze as much info as I can:

    As far as I know, you don’t have to disclose who generated the Lt order or at which combat group he belongs so this kind of guided me to this reasoning:


    A key piece of info is whether there is a link between particular troopers and particular orders in the pool, because when you generate orders you just count them and place them in piles. To put an example in game, if you ask to an adversary “who generated this regular order?” He’ll probably answer “I don’t know, this order is from my combat group 1 pool, so one of my regular troopers from that group…” so when you ask for an “irregular order” or “Lt order” from the pile he will answer “this irregular order was generated for one of my irregular models/my Lt”. You know what you see in the table so you’ll have to draw your own conclusions but Did he really have to answer exactly who generated that order?. If he is forced to do it for each regular/irregular order, then he will be forced to disclose private info at that moment and that doesn’t seem right, so it seems that it’s not intended to trace each particular order to each particular trooper.

    It’s true that the rules from Irregular troopers say that only the irregular marker generated by one trooper can activate that trooper, but while the irregular marker is in the pile you can’t say which is which.

    So to me the RAI, it seems that all order are generated at once and placed in piles so it seem that “this irregular order was generated by one of my irregular troopers but I don’t know exactly who until I activate him” should be a good enough answer, and as the regular/irregular state of marker state troopers is private info then you will have to guess who is who with the public info you have about the enemy army but without “robbing private info” by asking order by order. An important side note, Holoecho 2 state is public info, so it have to be declared, you can’t place 3 models in b2b and don’t say these 3 are an Holoecho state, but Holoecho 1 is private so you don’t have to say which particular model is behind these 3 models or if you only place 1 model then you don’t have to say anything at all.

    Then we have the command token use of that irregular orders… in this case as the irregular rules clearly say that each marker belong to an irregular trooper, then if you are removing an irregular token from the pile you’ll have to say which model is giving up his irregular order for the greater good even if that order doesn’t activate that model, and even if that model is in a marker state.

    This is the answer that I found more faithful to the spirit of the rules as you give him all info about your number of orders and how you use them, but you don’t disclose any private info you don't have to, but until CB disclose what they wanted to say with “status” I can’t be 100% sure.
     
    Hexa and Arkhos94 like this.
  18. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2017
    Messages:
    5,883
    Likes Received:
    11,257
    I am not sure were this conclusion came from, Irregular orders belong to models and nobody else its not a pile of orders, they are a specific order that belong to a specific model hence when you convert an irregular order to a regular you convert a specific order, you do not convert an irregular order from the pile and then conveniently decide later on in the round who of the irregulars does not have his order anymore.

    In direct contrast to regular orders that belong to nobody and ownership is irrelevant, models contribute their order, they do not hold their order hence isolation in the active turn stops the model, it cannot claim an unspent regular order was theirs to use.

    Likewise the combat group has one order pool and irregular orders are not part of the pool, but models belong to a combat group and your opponent must know what group has what models and irregular orders are part of these models.

    Theoretically LT order combat group could also known, but people stopped playing it like that since the early days of N3 and nobody really cares because LT should really be hidden.

    As I said a post above abusing the hidden information tag to create more misinformation and unnecessary confusion to the opponent for advantage like the "I play second with 16+ camouflage markers you do not know what combat group they belong to until I play" lists is not how the game is designed and is considered an abuse of the rules for unfair advantage.
     
    Ogid likes this.
  19. Ogid

    Ogid Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2018
    Messages:
    914
    Likes Received:
    755
    I think we agree in most points:

    I’ve not said that irregular orders doesn’t belong to particular models, I’ve questioned whether the adversary have the right to ask you for the ownership of each one of these while in the pile and I’ve created a good explanation within the rule frame to not answering that question in a way that disclosure private info.

    Because if they ask for the ownership of every irregular order and you must tell them the existence of an irregular CAMO marker or an irregular trooper disguised as a regular one by HOLO1, then what stop them to ask you for the owner of the Lt order, forcing you to give away your Lt. The wording used to describe the orders is the same and both the training of the CAMO/HOLO trooper and the Lt identity are private info, so if you have to give away one you also have to give away the other.

    In fact I also said in my post that if you use a command token to convert an irregular order, you must identify the model that is using the order so that model won’t have that order anymore that turn and also to assign that new regular order to the right combat group. I was careful not to break any rule.

    In my post I talked about orders not models, but maybe i should had stated that. The enemy player has the right to know which model and markers belong to each group of course. But RAW unless in the missing definition of “status” of an order is included the combat group of the model it belongs, you don’t have to say which irregular orders belongs to each combat group as both the Lt and the irregular orders are put aside.

    As you said, this is going to be pointless in most scenarios as the model/marker belonging to one group is open info and it’d be easier for you to put the irregular order near of the combat groups, but RAW if the other player is happier with his huge pile of irregular orders or want to play some mind games with CAMOs and HOLOs he can be my guess. I have no problem deducing that if the group 1 have 8 regular models and 2 camos and are 9 regular orders in that pool then one CAMO is irregular unless he is using any HOLO1 to fool me.

    RAW it seems not, but if the Lt combat group is supposed to be open info I’d like to know it to play it right. That would change how I’d build some lists and would give more opportunities to hunt the enemy Lt, which is a big deal.
     
  • About Us

    We are a company founded in 2001 in Cangas (Spain), and devoted to design and manufacture games and figures. Our main product, Infinity the Game, was born with the ambition to satisfy the most demanding audience, offering the best quality.

     

    Why are we here?

     

    Because we are, first and foremost, players.

  • Quick Navigation

    Open the Quick Navigation