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Does your opponent know which model an Irregular order belongs to?

Discussion in '[Archived]: N3 Rules' started by Hexa, May 28, 2019.

  1. Hexa

    Hexa TAG pilot

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    I'm certain that how many orders you have is open information, although I can't remember exactly where it says so. I also think your opponent doesn't get to know which model generates a Regular order, since that would identify Minelayered mines the instant they don't generate an order. But if your order pool contains some regular and some irregular models with their details hidden by camo or holo, does your opponent see which ones generate irregular orders or just that you have X regular and Y irregular?

    Placing the irregular order token next to its model is convenient for tracking orders, but is this sometimes giving my opponent information which is supposed to be hidden?

    The same question could apply to impetuous too, theoretically, such as if you deploy three troops with non-extreme impetuous (one of which is really a non-impetuous troop with holo1). You generate two impetuous orders, but can your opponent see which model didn't generate one if you don't spend any of them (since they can only be spent on the model which generated them)?
     
  2. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    1. Irregular orders are not, necessarily, known who they belong to; so, if I have an Intruder and a Bandit you can't know which is which just from the Orders they generate until I do something to reveal it.

    "Irregular Orders are represented by an Irregular Order (IRREGULAR) Marker.

    The status and expenditure of Irregular Orders is Open Information. Players must place their Irregular Order Markers where all players can see them."


    2. Impetuous orders are known.

    "Impetuous Orders are represented by an Impetuous Order (IMPETUOUS) Marker placed beside the trooper to whom it belongs. The status and expenditure of Impetuous Orders is Open Information."
     
    #2 inane.imp, May 28, 2019
    Last edited: May 28, 2019
  3. solkan

    solkan Well-Known Member

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    For Impetuous orders, see the Impetuous Order rules which explicitly tell you:http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Impetuous_Order
    “Impetuous Orders are represented by an Impetuous Order (IMPETUOUS) Marker placed beside the trooper to whom it belongs. The status and expenditure of Impetuous Orders is Open Information.”

    Irregular orders do not say the same thing:

    Irregular Orders are represented by an Irregular Order (IRREGULAR) Marker.

    The status and expenditure of Irregular Orders is Open Information. Players must place their Irregular Order Markers where all players can see them.”
     
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  4. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    Very important difference!
     
  5. Hexa

    Hexa TAG pilot

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    I see, thank you.

    So a hypothetical holo2 impetuous model would have some spectacular antisynergy.

    And when converting an Irregular order with a command token I need to choose who's it is, but not tell my opponent. And for very official play I suppose I should record who's it was so I can't change it.
     
    #5 Hexa, May 28, 2019
    Last edited: May 28, 2019
  6. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    Not really: becoming Impetuous is a cancellation clause for the Holoecho state.

    And, yes exactly. Although if the trooper isn't in a marker state then you just identify the trooper to whom the Irregular order belongs as it's Open Information.
     
  7. Vaulsc

    Vaulsc Well-Known Member

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    It could be prudent to place the irregular orders next to your regular order tokens on the table, then as you spend them, move one irregular order next to your model to indicate that particular model spent it. I personally just throw away that advantage by placing irregular orders next to my models on the table to begin with because I'm lazy and am willing to give up closed information for the sake of convenience xD
     
  8. toadchild

    toadchild Premeasure

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    It only really matters for things like holoprojectors and camo markers. However, even then, your opponent quickly knows something is going on when the numerical counts of models with a particular training and actual orders generated don't match up.
     
  9. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    The group that a trooper is in is open information. Ditto for markers.
     
  10. Arkhos94

    Arkhos94 Well-Known Member

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    I wouldn't be that affirmative. Take a camoed libertos for example.

    Do we know which group he is part of ? Yes because group appartenance of a trooper is public
    Do we know his groupe has X regular order ? Yes because the order pool is public

    Do we know this irregular order on the table is part of which group ? Not so sure. Hardcase irregular status is private (because camo) and irregular orders are not part of the order pool.

    Once the order is spent, my opponent will know, no question about that. Before that I would say he does not.
     
  11. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    It's been confirmed by @Hellois (in the FAQ, maybe)

    And Irregular orders are part of the Order pool. It's why the changing Irregular to Regular works.

    Edit: I'm being forgetful, Irregular orders are explicitly not part of the order pool. I'm confusing Order Pools and Combat Groups as the same concept.

    I'm still fairly certain that it which Combat Group an Irregular order belongs to is Open Information...
     
    #11 inane.imp, May 28, 2019
    Last edited: May 28, 2019
  12. Arkhos94

    Arkhos94 Well-Known Member

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    Could you provide a link for the first part ? I don't remember reading it and :
    - the word "irregular" only appears once in the FAQ (in a question related to datatracker and irregular)
    - found nothing in the "solved question" section


    Regarding order pool : could you tell me what you base this affirmation on ?
    Order pool is defined as "The Order Pool is the amount of Regular Orders available to each Combat Group during their Active Turn." and "Only Regular orders go into the Order Pool. Irregular Orders, Impetuous Orders and the Special Lieutenant Order are not part of any Order Pool.".(http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Order_Pool)
    So I no doubt with RAW: irregulars orders are not part of the orders pool.
    So you likely don't know which group they are part of when coming from a camoed trooper
     
    #12 Arkhos94, May 28, 2019
    Last edited: May 28, 2019
  13. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    That's the issue: you're doing what I did an are conflating whether or not the Irregular order is part of the Combat Group with whether which Combat Group that Irregular order belongs to is open information.

    I'm fairly certain that which Combat Group an Irregular order is part of is Open Information.

    I don't have the energy to search for the last time we had this conversation though. It's been a long day, sorry. :)
     
  14. Arkhos94

    Arkhos94 Well-Known Member

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    In the usual casen the trooper is what make the link between A:"This trooper is group 1" and B:"this irregular order belong to this trooper".
    A+B = this irregular order belong to group 1

    But camo marker adding its rules into the mix. "this irregular order belong to this trooper" is a private information with camo.
    So we are left with A:"This camo marker is group 1" and C:"This irregular order belong to someone and I won't tell you who"
    A+C = ?
     
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  15. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    I need to have the irregular orders in the pool with the regulars. Or I forget about them -.-U

    Same about the Impetuous, but those I can place near the models after making the check, to be spent then.
     
  16. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    I put my Irregular order(s) next to all my Regular orders and Command Tokens. Helps me remember to spend them! :flushed:

    But since I almost always run a single combat group, keeping track of which group the Irregular belongs to hasn't been an issue. It probably will be with my Nomads, though, because Bandits.
     
  17. JoKeR

    JoKeR HAWZA Instructor
    Warcor

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    i think you are wrong. when you converting order - you spend it, so you must tell which model or marker order it was spend because
     
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  18. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    Yeah. I can see that interpretation. Except (from Camouflaged state):

    "When you replace one of your Markers with a model, you are required to share all Open Information relative to that trooper."

    Which tells that until you replace the marker you aren't required to share Open Information relative to that Trooper.

    The easiest way to interpret both of these is for the expenditure of the Order to be shared at step 2 of an order it's used in (otherwise step 2 doesn't work) but the status of an order (IE who it belongs to) to be shared when the Trooper is revealed.

    IE.
    1. Activate a Trooper
    2. Spend a command token to change an Irregular order Regular state 'it doesn't belong to any revealed Trooper', spend that Regular order
    3. Continue the order expenditure sequence as normal

    This meets the standards of sharing as much information about the order as possible without sharing Open Information pertaining to a Trooper that has not yet revealed.
     
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  19. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    The solution is putting them next to the trooper AFTER you use them ;)
     
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  20. Hexa

    Hexa TAG pilot

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    That's disappointing, without that a model with both would actually have some interesting mechanics: reveals which one's real at the start of each of your turns, but your opponent loses track again whenever it reholos. It would be more interesting if it was generating an impetuous order which cancelled holoechoes, rather than simply being impetuous.

    Is it? If I have a combat group of a hunzakut in marker state, a Warcor, and a hafza disguised as a monstrucker then it has two Irregulars and one Regular. Supposing I choose not to spend any orders for some reason, does my opponent know that the Warcor generated an Irregular Order and the "Monstrucker" didn't, or just that that group had two Irregulars it didn't spend?

    Yes, it's an unusual circumstance where it matters. But it's not too rare to have an Irregular camo marker and a Regular one in the same group. And you might be able to manipulate the order count, for example by deploying a Regular holo troop appearing to be an irregular, to disguise that your camo marker is actually the irregular.

    (Quote edited slightly for clearer grammar: if I misunderstood something let me know)

    I think it SHOULD work that way, but I'm not convinced it does currently. The rules for converting an order only talk about converting, not spending and replacing.
    From uses for command tokens:
    • "Transform the Irregular Order provided by an Irregular troop into a single Regular Order, substituting the corresponding Order Marker but only for that Player Turn."
     
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