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Marksmanship Lvl X and Surprise Shot Lvl 1

Discussion in '[Archived]: N3 Rules' started by tigervx, May 9, 2019.

  1. tigervx

    tigervx Member

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    So Major Lunah has the required skills to both do Marksmanship Lvl X special shooting and Surprise shot. According to this thread:

    https://forum.corvusbelli.com/threads/speculative-fire-surprise-shot.932/page-5

    one can utilize surprise shot with entire order skills. So things like Triangulated Fire and Speculative Fire from marker state troopers can impose the additional -3 from Surprise Shot. So Marksmanship Lvl X should too, right? Only hangup I can find is while Speculative Fire and Triangulated Fire both have mentioned of "BS Attack" in their entries, Marksmanship Lvl X does not. It is labeled only as an attack, and unlike Speculative Fire makes no mention of "BS Attack" in its rule entry. It is simply labeled as an "Attack", though oddly it still says to apply all applicable modifiers like ODD... Which only modifies numbers from BS Attacks...

    Anyways, for the record, the question is simple: can Major Lunah shoot at someone with MMLX and then impose an additional -3 from surprise shot vs. them? Thanks for any help on this matter.
     
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  2. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    Yes.
    MMLX is an Entire Order skill that allows you to perform a "BS Attack".

    A "BS Attack" is any skill with the BS Attack label.

    Surprise Shot is a "BS Attack" because it has the BS Attack label.


    But yeah, agree it should have been written differently.
     
  3. tigervx

    tigervx Member

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    For the record, I looked over Marksmanship Lvl X again and one line does say:

    "In the same way, in this single BS Attack, the users ignore all the MODs provided by Partial Cover"

    Which seems to state it is a BS Attack, but it still lacks the BS Attack label and doesn't have an explicit bullet point like Speculative Fire that says

    "The user may make a single BS Attack against a target outside his LoF."

    I guess that might be good enough to argue that MMLX counts as a BS Attack? Anyways, thanks for the confirmation.
     
  4. Cartographer

    Cartographer Well-Known Member

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    Depressingly, I don't think the rules support this particular nesting at present.
    Triangulated Fire + Surprise Shot works because you declare "Traingulated Fire" (which itself is labelled as a BS Attack) as an entire order, the Effects of which have you "declare a BS Attack with one of his BS Weapons" which enables you to use Surprise Shot as it is a BS Attack (and we have FAQ clarification that having the label BS Attack = BS Attack).

    Marksmanship Level X isn't a BS Attack, it's labelled as just an Attack, and doesn't explicitly tell you to perform a BS Attack in the same manner as TF (in fairness, I think this is probably just inconsistent wording between skills, but it's all we have to work with), so you can't substitute/nest in Surprise Shot. I see the argument that in Marksmanship Level X's effects it says (bold mine):
    • In the same way, in this single BS Attack, the users ignore all the MODs provided by Partial Cover: they don't apply the MOD to their BS Attribute, and their targets cannot apply the MOD to their ARM Attribute.
    Which strongly infers that you are performing a BS Attack, but without explicit instruction we have no way of knowing if the label is a typo or the BS Attack in the body text.
     
  5. Azuset

    Azuset Well-Known Member

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    I am going to stand with @Cartographer on this one.

    Sensor: Triangulated Fire specially says you for a player to "declare an attack with one of your BS weapons"

    SENSOR: TRIANGULATED FIRE ENTIRE ORDER
    BS Attack, Optional.
    REQUIREMENTS
    • The user must have the Sensor Special Skill.
    • The user must also have LoF to the target.
    EFFECTS
    • Allows the user to declare a BS Attack with one of his BS Weapons against a target within LoF by making a BS-3 Roll, ignoring all other applicable MODs (Range, Cover, Special Skills such as Camouflage, TO, ODD...).

    Marksmanship LX does not state this.

    I really think they need to add an attribute to the skill description for buffing or de-buffing a skill. For example the surprise attacks could be a skill enhancement instead of a skill them selfs. Maybe put them down as an automatic skill? I can't think of a situation where you would not want to use surprise shot. Unless of course CB wants players to have to make a choice on a +6 single burst or a -3 to shoot back.
     
  6. solkan

    solkan Well-Known Member

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    Did you ever notice that Surprise Shot has the BS Attack label and says to perform a BS Attack so you can perform an infinitely recursive Surprise Shot attack? :face_with_head_bandage:

    One of the areas where the rules need to be cleaned up is that they don’t properly differentiate between “any skill with the BS Attack label” and “specifically and only the BS Attack skill” in skill descriptions. And Marksmanship X manages to almost completely avoid saying the words “BS Attack”. :scream:
     
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  7. Teslarod

    Teslarod when in doubt, Yeet

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    New MMLX is nested the "wrong" way.

    All the other Special BS Attack Skills do it the other way around so there is no issue with them. No idea why that was changed either because old MMS LX was nested correctly too.
     
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  8. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
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    I see, we may need to look into it, in any case you should be able to use it with Surprise shot.
     
  9. Cartographer

    Cartographer Well-Known Member

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    I'd hope in a future rule revision we'd get something like BS Attack as the universal Skill/ARO, with the Entire Order Skills (Triangulated Fire, Marksmanship LX) instructing you to perform a BS attack as part of their effects, while optional/automatic skills' (Surprise Shot, Full Auto) effects can simply be applied so long as their requirements are met. Sort of similar to how Martial Arts interacts with CC Attack, you don't declare "Martial Arts 3", you declare "CC Attack using Martial Arts 3". So you could declare "Triangulated Fire (a BS Attack) using Surprise Shot".
     
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  10. DukeofEarl

    DukeofEarl Well-Known Member

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    It is possible MMLX was done differently specifically so it can not be used in a Coordinated order with other BS Attacks. That is the only real reasoning I can figure out for not making it work like the other skills that "allow you to make a BS attack"
     
  11. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    You can't Co-ord Entire Order skills that let you perform BS Attacks with other BS Attacks. So you can't Co-ord Intuitive Attack and Spec Fire or Intuitive Attack and BS Attack.* The wording of MMLX doesn't prevent that, the fact that they're different skills and lack of the BS Attack label prevents that.

    * Except, technically, Triangulated Fire because it has the BS Attack label.
     
  12. DukeofEarl

    DukeofEarl Well-Known Member

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    Yeah you are right. I was confusing the BS Attack FAQ situation with the Surprise Shot one in my head.
     
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