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Berserk vs i-Kohl - Example contradicts rules

Discussion in '[Archived]: N3 Rules' started by paraelix, May 10, 2019.

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  1. Arkhos94

    Arkhos94 Well-Known Member

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    It says "a sucessfull dodge". The definition of sucess being in the rules (for both normal and opposed roll), what do you need more ?

    Quoting myself from 2 pages ago :
    Normal roll : you roll the dice and see if you are equal or lower to your value

    So in a case of dodge vs move + move, you are the only one rolling so it's a normal roll.

    You roll lower or equal to your PH : it's a sucessfull dodge. You roll higher : it's a fail.


    Quoting the rule for opposed roll (i juste change the bullet point in a number list):
    So, to have a successfull dodge in an opposed roll case, you need to roll lower or equal than your PH value and beat the opposing rolls (outcome 2 if you are the one who pass, 3 if you are the one with the higher dice, 4 if you are the one with a crit)


    PS : Of course the definition of sucessful roll is in the rule, if not you wouldn't be able to do anything in infinity that require rolling a dice.
     
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  2. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

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    I've never implied/said the FTF roll required to evade attacks means the 2" move requires a FTF roll as well.

    I want to focus on your statement in brackets. You said, "(but you must still win the roll for Dodge to take any effect at all, as is governed by Face to Face type rolls)" Is this why you think you can move 2" without making a FTF roll? Can you show me step by step how you win the roll for Dodge and move 2"? Using a Dodge ARO in response to a Move+Move as the situation. (the situation below is coming closer to the point I've been making.)
    Because no one has explained it thoroughly enough.
    But how do you know you must roll equal to or lower than your PH attribute to 'successfully Dodge'?

    The only place the PH attribute is referenced is in a bullet point/effect stating very specifically this is a FTF roll. How do you apply the PH roll to a normal roll? Which is the required roll to make during a Dodge ARO in response to a Move + Move. Are you saying or implying the FTF roll is in fact not a requirement? And in situations where a normal roll is required, you simply interchange them?
     
  3. Arkhos94

    Arkhos94 Well-Known Member

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    Here (If the result on the die is equal to or lower than the Attribute, the Skill (here dodge) is successful):

    See above, normal roll rule page quote
     
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  4. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

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    @Arkhos94 You haven't answered all my questions. You've only answered those that suite your opinion.

    There's a bullet stating a Dodge is a FTF roll. Which is also the only bullet telling you it's a PH roll. The instructions telling us how to make a Normal roll don't bypass that requirement. How are you reconciling this?
     
  5. tox

    tox SorriBarai
    Warcor

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    If you do not have an action against you are acting, would you be able to declare a Dodge?
    Or are you claiming that a Dodge can prevent a Doctor success?

    If you roll all by yourself or if the skill do not interact with each other, the rolls are Normal. This is basic Infinity since the start.
    And if you roll Normal, there is no way to interact with the opponent (like the "i drop a smoke in ARO but i'm not a target of the attack so my smoke does not protect anyone" corundum).

    Berserker change the rolls from FtF to Normal. You are allowed to Dodge (the only requirement is to have LoF to the active model) but you cannot prevent his damage, just move.

    As bad as the rules can be written, these are the rules.
    A lot of people have already answered you that this is how you it has to be played.
    Any further "but it is not what is written" is a waste of time.
     
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  6. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

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    I'd accept those responses if they didn't come with the caveat that the rules actually back up their answers as the only valid interpretation. Some kind of admission that this rule doesn't function properly but this is how we choose to play it, would be fanfuckingtastic!

    So as long as the responses continue to claim how the rules make sense and reading them correctly should lead one to their conclusion, I'll continue to argue my point.
    I'm not worried or concerned about what the RAW do in other cases. I'll deal with those as they arise. I want to know how a rule works so I can apply it in all situations. Teach a man to fish and all that.
    This statement is extremely vague. Dodge is a FTF roll. How does it function as a normal roll? What rolls change to normal, all FTF rolls within the skill, only certain effects? Why can I not prevent his damage, normal roll Dodges evade attacks in other situations?

    I'd appreciate these issues explained if people are going to tell me how to play the game. I'm not here to memorize 5,000 rulings and where they're found. I'm here to learn how to read the rules in order to play the game. When i come across answers/rules that don't fit within the RAW, i point them out so I'll learn if I'm reading the rule incorrectly, or in hopes they'll be addressed in the future

    It's just very sad you call this a waste a time.
     
  7. Sabin76

    Sabin76 Well-Known Member

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    Perhaps the Red "Important" Box has the answer you seek?

    I will admit that there is not an explicit statement that says, "all dodge rolls are against PH", but there is enough evidence throughout the skill that makes it clear that's the case.

    Would it be nice if all skills that required a roll also explicitly stated which attribute you were rolling against? Yes.
    Is it required for the game to function given all of the other text present? No so much.

    Give me an example of a skill that changes which attribute you roll against depending on whether it's a F2F or normal roll, and I'll admit you have a point.
     
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  8. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

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    That red box about remotes, TAGs etc, is referring to the bullet point/effect in Dodge that states it's a FTF roll using the PH attribute. . I was really only asking about the PH attribute because it helped draw attention to the Dodge skill requiring a FTF roll against your PH. So any successful Dodge has to meet that requirement. The Dodge rules make sense when in situations it was designed for, ie FTF rolls

    In situations where it's a normal roll, they are explained in more detail, like with certain template weapons. (notice how all normal roll interactions are found outside the Dodge rule itself) Or when not suffering an attack, like Dodge ARO in response to Move+Move, the designers didn't need to worry about how their ruling would effect the ability to evade attacks, because they obviously can't come up. So we got this FAQ stating we can declare Dodge ARO when not the target of an attack. Problem solved right???

    However, when it comes to Berserk Attack the interaction is more complicated. I still think it was an oversight. I've yet to hear anytihng to change my mind, and I will change it... as I've done so already.
     
  9. Arkhos94

    Arkhos94 Well-Known Member

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    Let's try it once again.

    First, saying "Dodge is a FTF roll" is wrong. No skill is face to face by itself.

    To know if a skill is face to face you have to look at :
    - interaction : for something to be face to face, active and reactive skills have to affect each other (see each skill description + FAQ to know if skills interact)
    example : dodge vs BS attack is face to face, dodge vs hacking is not (that's normal roll for both)
    - special rule : some special rule can make a roll face to face or not
    example : berserk, smoke (the famous smoke special dodge...)

    Now dodge itself :

    REQUIREMENTS

    The user must be able to draw LoF to the attacker.=> Requirement is to have LoF nothing more or less (even if there are exception later). This is what allows you to declare dodge against anything, even a move, a hacking attack (as long as you have LoF on the active trooper), no FAQ needed

    EFFECTS
    • Allows the user to make a Face to Face Roll to evade one or more simultaneous enemy Attacks.=> This allow your roll against an attack to be face to face even if you do not "affect" the opposing trooper (because dodge does not cause damage
    • This Face to Face Roll pits the user's PH Attribute against whichever Attribute the attacker uses (BS, CC, PH, WIP...). => Define PH as the skill you will use for dodge. Only poorly written thing here, still I never had any new player not understanding which attribute to use to dodge
    • In the Active Turn, the Dodge Roll is compared to all attack AROs generated by the active trooper. => keyword : active turn, attack ARO. no explaination needed
    • In the Reactive Turn, the Dodge Roll is compared to all Burst (B) attacks from all active enemies. For example, a reactive trooper could Dodge with a single Roll several shots from enemies using a Coordinated Order or all Close Combat attacks. => keyword : reactive turn, attack . no explaination needed
    • In Reactive Turn only, a successful Dodge allows the user to Move—or use another Short Movement Skill that doesn't require a Roll—up to 2 inches. => Keyword : reactive turn, sucessful dodge. Only in reactive turn are you allowed to move while dodging. Sucess is the only condition necessary for this effect (sucessfull skill use being defined in the normal and face to face roll section)
    • Movement resulting from Dodging in Reactive Turn can never be used to enter base to base contact with an enemy. Only the Common Skill Engage allows that. => limitation of the effect above
    • Movement resulting from Dodging in Reactive Turn must follow the General Movement Rules as well as the Moving and measuring sidebar, both of which are explained in the Move Common Skill rules.=> limitation of the effect above
     
    #149 Arkhos94, May 15, 2019
    Last edited: May 15, 2019
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  10. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

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    I appreciate you taking the time to try and spell that out.

    I agree with your interpretation that no skill is required to be FTF by itself. The same way many skills reference making ARM rolls. It's not a requirement that a roll is FTF or ARM, these terms are interchangeable in my mind. If the situation is a BTS roll, you make that roll. If the situation is a normal roll, you make that roll. So we've looked at skills, what about effects. Can effects be required to be FTF? I'd argue no for the same reasons above.

    The situation itself determines what kind of roll must be made, not the skill/effect itself. Unless of course you have this unique situation where Berserk Attack TURNS a roll into another kind of roll. And in this case it's trying to TURN the Dodge roll, which i don't think was written to function as a normal roll, into a normal roll.

    So in the Berserk Attack vs Dodge ARO i see the term in the rule below as interchangeable.
    • This Face to Face Roll pits the user's PH Attribute against whichever Attribute the attacker uses (BS, CC, PH, WIP...).
    • This Roll (Face to Face or Normal) pits the user's PH Attribute against whichever Attribute the attacker uses (BS, CC, PH, WIP...).
    • Allows the user to make a Face to Face Roll to evade one or more simultaneous enemy Attacks.
    • Allows the user to make a Roll (Face to Face or Normal) to evade one or more simultaneous enemy Attacks.
    Which leads me to two conflicting outcomes when both the Berserk and Dodge rolls succeed.
    I like your descriptions here and I agree. The second effect is really only defining the PH attribute as the stat to roll against. The kind of roll isn't relevant because it is determined by the situation. The first effect follows this same logic. It's just telling us what the roll allows us to do, evade attacks.

    The only place this is an issue is Berserk. Because it creates a unique situation that I don't believe is found anywhere else in Infinity? And I don't believe the answer to this situation is to say one of the skills/effects has FTF as a requirement and the other does not. I just don't see any logic to make that distinction.
     
  11. Alphz

    Alphz Kuang Shi Vet. Retired.

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    Wow.

    I never thought we could discuss how the rule dodge is broken.

    At some point the specific interaction called up by beserk must trump the general application of dodge.
    You need this in rules to not require every single interaction to be spelled out.
     
  12. A Mão Esquerda

    A Mão Esquerda Deputy Hexahedron Officer

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    Well, it depends. Spelling it out each and every time it could conceivably occur would add text for very little return, especially if the available evidence indicates a majority of players grasp it and are fine without. Could it conceivably be tighter without much more text? Sure, but again, at what point is it simply adding text for no return?
     
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  13. Nemo No Name

    Nemo No Name Aleph Cultural Atache

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    We're not. We're discussing how Ginrei is pretending he doesn't understand the rules.
     
  14. A Mão Esquerda

    A Mão Esquerda Deputy Hexahedron Officer

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    Well, it’s not the worst rabbit hole...
     
  15. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

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    I'm picturing people buying expensive merchandise that comes with instructions on how to assemble it. Only to find the instructions vague and unclear. Or missing important details that may be applicable to them.

    Then the merchandise fails to work properly. I know what the people returning it are thinking. Those keeping it must be thinking... "just hold the antenna steady there while we watch the show and everything works just fine"

    [​IMG]
     
  16. A Mão Esquerda

    A Mão Esquerda Deputy Hexahedron Officer

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    @Nemo No Name, also, when not taken to arguably absurd lengths or presented in an abusive manner, bringing up things that could appear confusing or unclear can be valuable. This thread, well... yeah...
     
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  17. A Mão Esquerda

    A Mão Esquerda Deputy Hexahedron Officer

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    How many people are satisfied with their purchase and find the instructions perfectly clear, or, indeed, overlong since there is needlessly repeated information included trying to reach people unwilling to expend any effort to understand, but rather choosing to return the product as flawed without any expenditure of energy and then claiming their atypical experience is the norm?
     
  18. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

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    Keep holding that antenna up, you're great at it.
     
  19. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
    Moderator

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    I think it is a valid criticism and something we can keep in mind for the future.
     
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  20. A Mão Esquerda

    A Mão Esquerda Deputy Hexahedron Officer

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    Keeping with your image, I don’t have an antenna, I've a nice cable connection and lovely picture, but, hey, you do you.
     
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