Is CB aware of the requirements to declare Reset?

I agree, and as other have pointed out, there are ways to remove that Jammer.

It's not only about finding ways your faction can remove that Jammer. It's also about the resources that must be committed or the position you're in to do so. @tox may talk about being prepared to sacrifice something but there are no guarantees in Infinity. The ideal unit necessary to remove that Jammer may not be able to deploy near that fireteam or it may get unlucky. How much support will that trooper need to remove it? How many resources can we send in pursuit of that Jammer? What if we must deploy first? There are no guarantees we'll be in a position to deal with that fireteam, let alone Jammer, using a reasonable amount of resources. Of course that's part of the game, but the risk vs reward is heavily in favor of the Jammer.

That Spec-Op is an amazing piece of board control with plenty of other options at it's disposal for very few points. On topic... I guess we just Reset. O.o

 

Have you literally not read the thread? You cannot Reset in your active turn against a linked Jammer. This is The Problem that we are discussing.

Your first Skill, move in.
They hold their ARO because they have SSL2.
You declare whatever other skill, and it cannot be Reset because you haven't been the target of an attack.

You eat an unopposed B2 WIP+3 no-LoF Jammer attack.

And yeah, that guy is probably going to be on a rooftop or inside a building. He's not going to FtoF you most of the time if he can help it.

 

You should unspoiler that: it's a clear, excellent point.

Also, sorry I'm a bit thick, but why do Libertos possibly get another action after the Jammer hits? Is that assuming their Frenzy gets activated? Not gonna happen if the Jammer guy is hiding.

 

Don’t spend their irregular order until after they get Jammed.

 

Best sacrifical pawn: 10-11pts and 1 SWC for 2 camo markers, one of which is a mine, toting a +6BS weapon on short range. And they can "gain" some movement by placing the mine (so they move 4'', but can place the mine just in front of them, thus maybe menacing the Jammer or its fireteam).

Also this XD

 

Hmm... remove No LOF and Intuitive Attack labels and replace with Speculative Fire. Similar effect but carries severe restrictions and a large negative MOD.

Still doesn't change that using a Jammer, just like speculative firing grenades, is risk free, but it does make the attack require a trade-off between risk and chance.

 

Have you not been reading the thread?

You CANNOT declare Reset against a linked Jammer ARO!

 

Wow, I let @Savnock's comment go but now you too @Section9
I know this is the internet and all but i thought I made it clear there was more to that statement than the words alone.

O.o

 

Yeah it was fairly clearly sarcastic.

 

The trouble with this is it stops Jammers being a defensive tool that works out of LOF. I think the game needs tool of that type: Jammer should just be less effective in that role because, at present, it's too strong.

Giving it a straight -3 to ATK WIP wouldn't be an awful solution. I think less well targetted than introduction of ISO-1 though.

Jammers are great defensively and I largely think this is a good thing: the ability to check a Rambo's advance is important. My problem is that they have no vulnerabilities that can be exploited and they often don't merely stop Rambos but effectively make them irrelevant for the entire game.

At straight -3 to ATK WIP inhibits their ability to check Rambos while doing nothing about the lack interesting counter-play options ('shoot it in the back, trade or Spec Fire it' apply to pretty much everything in the game) or the power of their attack.

I don't think the reliability of Jammers is the issue: the power is.

 

I certainly didn't read it that way, but my text-only sarcasm detector is probably broken.

 

Why does the game need a tool like this? We already have Hackers.
I'm not accusing you here, but it's funny the overlap between the people who defends Jammer and the people who doesn't want Engage to be meaningful because it would reduce active turn advantage. Jammers specifically reduce active turn advantage, since they're not very productive use of orders, generally speaking, during their own active turn.
Hackers can do a similar effect to Jammers, but only against specific targets and only at personal risk (and since the introduction of KHD this risk is significant)

Maybe the only effect Jammers should have is to disable Comms Equipment, and then have Hackers be more meaningful against non-Hackable and non-Hacker targets?

 

There's three different tools that distinctly overlap this space:

Claw programs.
Pheroware Tactics.
Jammers.

Access to these tools aren't evenly distributed. Significantly changing how these tools work isn't just a tweak it's a major version change (see OldGregs arguments about the importance of Ghazi in HB).

So I agree you could remove Jammers as a non-lof defensive tool but doing so would require significantly reworking those factions that rely on Jammers for much of their defence vs non-hackable targets.

I like the fact that these tools overlap but offer subtle differences: it's interesting. CB clearly thinks the same way. So I think the juice is worth the squeeze in making Jammers work better within the existing ecosystem.

Personally, instead of your change I'd prefer @Hecaton's: remove them entirely and replace them in total with E-Marats.

Basically, I'm looking at a change that is viable in the next 'point' release* rather than one that would require a full new version.

* HSN3 = N3.1, Tagline = N3.1.1, Uprising = N3.2 3O = N3.3, ITSX = N3.3.1, Daedalus Falls N3.4 seems to be about what we're at.

 

Plus Burst 1 regardless of Fireteam, plus -6 if no LoF (down to -3 if in a 5man Fireteam) and has no area damage, so risking a FO/risk orders for a hacker to mark one member of a fireteam to catch others is not attractive.

It's a good patch, I think.

To be fair, Jammers perform another job, since troops like Tarik or Sheskin are inmunne to hacking but not to a Jammer. The same gets applied to troops like the Krakot, and a Jammer can certainly make life difficult for an AD trooper. In that way, I can place a Heckler (for example) in a flank, in camo state, and be fairly certain that I have options against an AD trying to touch down/infiltrate there, while otherwise I might be forced to place flash pulse bots (and pray) in positions that lets them to cover the side and from their positions to the center and...

BTW, let's consider that Muttas have WIP 15 (for 5 pts) while Hecklers and Zulus are around WIP 13. A -3 if no LoF seems OK to me, frankly... And making them impossible to link seems quite the good idea too.

Then again, I have found this latest batch of "let's give everyone and their uncle E/M or similar weapons" kinda uninteresting, since playing to Isolate the enemy units looks to me like killing one of the critical pillars of Infinity: The order pool... (other being the ARO, but a lot of games go for alternate activation to kinda go there without reaching such extreme)

 

Let's put it in a different way.

It costs +5 points extra and at least 0,5 SWC to have a Jammer that works against HI, REM, TAG and Hackers only and that specific Hacking program was strong enough that they introduced a +3 points device only to counter these Hacking Devices.

Why does the game need a device that costs an estimated +1 points, which can Oblivion any unit, and doesn't make the device carrier themselves a target of Hackers and vulnerable to ISO? (Yes, there are further differences but aside from the Repeater difference, they aren't huge) Why can't the functionality of this device not be fully and completely replaced by a Hacking program?
Knock Oblivion down to DAM 13 (or even 11) and remove target restrictions.

(#makeahdgreatagain I guess...)

 

Ack, sorry, told you I was thick! I wasn't reading your s(balanced and well-considered) statement just above that closely enough. Jeez, I was on one yesterday.

Also @toadchild thank you for helping me with what should have been totally obvious but I was, as mentioned, not all there yesterday. Irregular troops: adaptive for certain situations!

Back on topic, I'm definitely going to put Libertos and/or Krakot in every one of my Interplanetario lists that I can, specifically to deal with broken-ass linked Jammers. Not that those are great counters, but better than nothing.

 

Guess which of those are the most expensive and lest reliable options xD

 

I guess this is another argument for getting the comic sans font to the forums?