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Patsy in the core?

Discussion in 'PanOceania' started by Rocker, May 8, 2019.

  1. Rocker

    Rocker Well-Known Member

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    We're discussing the Datatracker choice here, not LT. So no marker state.
     
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  2. Zewrath

    Zewrath Elitist Jerk

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    Yes because that's how Monofilament works :joy:
     
  3. daboarder

    daboarder Force One Commander
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    Run the numbers on a linked ORC vs a speculo or fiday mate.

    Then add intelligent defence like sacrifical troops to prevent them getting into b2b and other plays.

    Think it through
     
  4. daboarder

    daboarder Force One Commander
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    Its how face to face rolls work mate
     
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  5. Zewrath

    Zewrath Elitist Jerk

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    K.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    Woooooooow! It turns out (to none's surprise) that impersonator will shred your Orc as easy as your Fusilier.

    Dumb? You mean dumb plays? Because you do realise what happens when you cluster several troops on top of each other against impersonators with Shotguns and even Mines? They slice the pie, hit multiple of your models, throw smoke and proceed to slaughter your Datatracker in safety. Not sure why you take this so personal but no... an Orc isn't more durable against impersonators on any meaningful level. Im okay with you taking the Orc regardless of this information, just don't pretend otherwise.

    ...no? I'm sorry, what do mean exactly? Are you under the absurd impression that you get to fire back on 20's with 2 dices? Surely not, because that has nothing to do with the Orc being a better option, as it is about the Impersonator player being terrible.
     
  6. Rocker

    Rocker Well-Known Member

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    Could you deploy in the following way:
    upload_2019-5-9_14-13-41.png
    Assuming this is on the top of a roof (with parapets) with the DT prone in the corner, and X and Y are camo markers. Would this keep the impersonator out of b2b combat, as well as preventing any shotgun blast (since he can't target the camo markers)? In that case a linked Orc would have better chance at surviving the f2f shootout.
     
  7. Zewrath

    Zewrath Elitist Jerk

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    @Rocker
    That could certainly work.
    Although the issue is only that either you’re wasting very precious Camo tokens of the Zulu or your ARO fish, although that’s certainly a good argument to use them like that since the DT is so important.
     
  8. Rocker

    Rocker Well-Known Member

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    Helot is only 9 points, and the other could be a mine. Or if you take the ZC LT, you want to hide it as well.

    But deploying like this means you're vulnerable to spec fire... :) or somehow get a sensor in there... no impersonator with sensor/sniffer/repeater exist right?
     
    #28 Rocker, May 9, 2019
    Last edited: May 9, 2019
  9. Zewrath

    Zewrath Elitist Jerk

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    Oh, and this goes without saying. Don't have your DT stand up in that illustration, otherwise a ML/HRL is going to ruin your day! :joy:
     
  10. Rocker

    Rocker Well-Known Member

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    Haha...no of course. Would only deploy like that vs impersonator factions and maybe JSA.

    Still, I think a linked fusilier is not that far behind on the f2f roll as an Orc in that situation. -2BS. If one of the camo tokens is a mine, and there is a jammer nearby it would take alot for the impersonator to survive...
     
  11. daboarder

    daboarder Force One Commander
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    HAHAHA sure Zewarth, Dumb plays, just the sort of plays that win tournaments.

    And yeah, sticking a camo marker in front of your Data tracker to force a speculo to reveal to try and remove the obstacle preventing it from getting into B2B with teh data tracker, meanwhile the DT is shooting back at BS+3 and B2 is dumb....

    Sure mate, sure ;)

    EDIT: As to the numbers youve quoted, Sure, Worst case scenario, when Djabel has killed your link team (at least two other members) and then gotten smoke over the ORC and no effort has been made to force the impersonator to reveal early or face any form over overlapping defence they have some bad numbers.

    Who'd have thunk it, Bad playing leads to poor odds of winning.

    Now run the numbers on the ORC shooting back, forcing Djabel into a gunfight by preventing or limiting his abillity to get into B2B with the ORC.
    A Decoy marker or Mine in front of a corner deployed ORC that is then covered by a Jammer.....Im sure Djabel will love that......
     
    #31 daboarder, May 9, 2019
    Last edited: May 9, 2019
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  12. daboarder

    daboarder Force One Commander
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    @Rocker, You only need 1 troop in front of the DT to prevent the opponent getting into B2B. Place it centrally and there is not enough room either side of it for the impersonator
     
  13. Zewrath

    Zewrath Elitist Jerk

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    Sorry mate but it’s excessively cringe to watch someone boast and turn it into a dick measuring contest. Especially when their performance rating is utterly mediocre.

    Also, no it isn’t worst case scenario it’s literally normal. Is this the third time I mention that people who engage with their impersonators in a way that allows multi ranged ARO’s are terrible players?
    The fact that you claim that those scenarios are worst case (when they are trivially easy to perform), implying that anything else is the norm, really says more about your meta than anything else.

    Anyways, this has taken a direction I didn’t wish for so I’ll just leave this thread sorry for the bother OP.
     
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  14. xammy

    xammy Keeper of Random Facts and Strong Opinions

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    I think you missed the point. His argument is to prevent the CC death of a DT by an impersonator. Which the sacrificial blockers method works very well. Sure, worst case you lose all the rolls and still end up dead, but the odds are your DT is going to live once an impersonator is revealed.

    It's also something new players don't think of when deploying, so it's good to show options that are available to any army to help prevent the immediate lose of key pieces.
     
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  15. Zewrath

    Zewrath Elitist Jerk

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    I think it’s positive we have people like you to interpret the best possible message so have my like but the quoted part was literally cringe dick swinging, sorry.

    Also, I’m getting a bit frustrated. There’s no such thing as a revealed impersonator, they are ALREADY revealed. They throw smoke out of LOF... :|
     
  16. xammy

    xammy Keeper of Random Facts and Strong Opinions

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    That's true, but all the more reason to include MSV2 or jammers. Impersonators suck to go against, and they are going to do damage, but it's important to work on ways to reduce that damage or funnel it toward things that you are more ok with losing.
     
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  17. barakiel

    barakiel Echo Bravo Master Sergeant

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    Just a quick note...
    It's rare that we can actually get competitive, knowledgeable ITS players into the same thread. My hope is that ITS players can listen to one another's opinions. There are folks in this thread who have achieved very good competitive results. Let's listen to what folks have to say, even if we disagree.

    Responding to the topic:
    One big component of playing VIRD is that you should have both Jammers and Helots to deny area to any Impersonator. With both of those tools, there's no reason an Impersonator should have a safe place to throw smoke from. You can even make Speculative smoke tosses extremely difficult. It's a big reason I've been running double Jammers in missions where I need my Datatracker to live. With Jammer, you can make smoke tosses and CC runs close to impossible. You can force an opponent to try for the shotgun blasts, which linked PanO troops often defeat.

    It happened to me at Rumble, actually. Acquisition vs Haqq, I had an ORC HMG Datatracker. The 2 Wounds + Unconscious state was a big deal. Having 2 Wounds vs an Impersonator meant the difference between a strong finish and getting knocked into the middle of the pack. Jammer coverage meant the Impersonator couldn't capitalize.

    Also, I don't agree that you should avoid a durable Datatracker because someone might bring monofilament. That's like not bringing the Kamau MSV2 because someone might have White Noise. A handful of specific counters doesn't make a unit bad.

    Edit:
    Good point by @xammy
    An impersonator is likely to do some kind of damage. But Varuna's really good at making sure they don't do very much.
     
    #37 barakiel, May 9, 2019
    Last edited: May 9, 2019
  18. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    This whole "use camo to block" approach sucks a bit if enemy manages to deploy new Speculo+Mine on top of the ORC.
     
  19. Rocker

    Rocker Well-Known Member

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    To summarize:
    For missions where the Datatracker is just there to survive and not do anything, then you may as well take cheap 1W guy and put it prone on a roof. The position and surrounding defense will likely keep the opponent away.

    For missions where you need the datatracker to do something/advance, then a more durable troop is advisable.

    Sounds about right?
     
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  20. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    Yes, especially when you can use prone bodies to block direct and easiest approach to a DT for melee killers. (still might not be enough against Sphinx or something similar)
     
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