Well... as a point I was trying to make earlier in thread. It's important to note that Total Immunity doesn't do this reverse Midas, because all other models hit by the same attack won't be protected. So the distinction between "treat as" and "becomes" is important, but in the reverse way that Ginrei is arguing.
Guys... http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Fire_Special_Ammunition Fire Special Ammunition (Redirected from Fire) N3 Wiki > Main Sections > Weaponry and Equipment > Weaponry > Fire Special Ammunition A variety of flamethrowers and incendiary ammunitions that damage the target by saturating the area around it with long-lasting flames and heat. Category Standard. Roll After a successful attack using Fire Special Ammunition, the target must make an ARM Roll. Effects If the target fails its ARM Roll, it loses 1 point from its Wounds/STR Attribute and must keep making ARM Rolls until it reaches the Dead state or passes an ARM Roll. When the target passes an ARM Roll, the Fire dies out. Additionally, a trooper affected by Fire Special Ammunition who has Fire-Sensitive Special Skills or Equipment will enter the Burnt state, regardless of the result of the ARM Roll. Place a Burnt Marker (BURNT) beside all troopers with Fire-Sensitive Special Skills or Equipment when they are affected by Fire Special Ammunition. Critical hits with Fire Special Ammunition cause the target to lose 1 point directly from his Wounds/STR Attribute, bypassing the ARM Roll, and to make an additional ARM Roll. The target must keep making ARM Rolls until it reaches the Dead state or passes an ARM Roll. These are the EFFECTS of the Fire Ammo. Total Immunity makes "the owner is immune to the special effects of the Special Ammunitions, treating them as Normal Ammunition" Entering the Burnt state is an effect. No effect, no burnt.
Except it's in contradiction to what's written on Nanoscreen and other fire sensitive equipment. Simply being "affected" by it is enough to burn it. And reading from template weapons, "affected" is when you're touched by the template. If it's an impact template weapon like a rocket launcher, then it doesn't even need to hit, just touching the template is enough to be "affected". Yes it's stupid and terminology is as clear as US presidential election system. It needs a FAQ.
Nah, if US and their nukes can be ok with voting system which doesn't require voters authentication then we should be fine without FAQ xD
Nanoscreen and Fire Special Ammunition If the user of a Nanoscreen is affected by Fire Special Ammunition, then this piece of Equipment is rendered Burnt, regardless of the result of the ARM Roll. Place a Burnt Marker beside the user, who remains in that state until his Equipment is repaired (usually by an Engineer). The model with Total Immunity is not hit by a FIRE ammo but by a N ammo. See E/M example for cross reference
Nanoscreen tells us what happens when it's hit by Fire Ammunition. Fire Ammunition tells us how it affects Fire Sensitive equipment. Burnt state tells us how it's activated. Before we can tackle Total Immunity interacting with the rules above it would be nice to know exactly how something enters the burnt state. How are players supposed to determine how a trooper enters the Burnt state when the wording and format is different in each of those rules above? What conditions need to be met and from which rules? @tox You've pointed out the Nano and FA rules, but I don't need to look at those rules to activate the Burnt state in the first place. Burnt activation only requires a hit from Fire ammo and the troopers equipment to be Fire Sensitive. I'm sure we all agree that in the situation we're talking about, the TI trooper is hit by an attack and carries Fire Sensitive equipment. The only debate right now is whether that attack counts as being hit by Fire ammo. So it doesn't matter if TI makes the owner immune to the special effects of special ammo and thus fire ammo. All that matters is whether the TI trooper is hit by Fire ammo. I don't think this line in the rules, "the owner is immune to the special effects of the Special Ammunitions, treating them as Normal Ammunition." changes the hit from a Fire Ammo hit to a Normal Ammo hit for the purpose of any rule activation. I understand others disagree, that's their opinion. But it's a Mr. Fantastic level stretch to tell me the rules CLEARLY support their interpretation and only their interpretation. *wink @locksmith *
It would be nice if the powers that be could acknowledge that the RAW support playing this situation as, Nanoscreen TI troopers being hit by a heavy rocket launcher enter the Burnt state. Everyone else can play their way and the powers that be can say the RAW or RAI support them too. But if CB ever want us all playing by the same rules, they can spend the time and money necessary to improve their product.
How many different ammo make a model enter the Burnt state? One. Where is it stated that the model enters the Burnt state? In the effects. What is ignored by Total Immunity? The effects of ammo. I seriously don't know why you guys like to complicate simple things...
Because those "simple" things more often than not get a surprising answer from CB that has little to nothing to do with logic or rules consistency, maybe. You are not truly an Infinity Veteran until you stubbed your toe against at least three poorly writtne/understood/contradictory rules. Extra points if it's one of each...
But, maybe, just maybe, when there are some parts like this where something is written in strange ways, what you can do? You point the most dominant one (in this case, the only ammo that can cause the involved state) and stick to that. Then you bring up the question (as it had been done), but you (disclaimer: not you xagroth, it is a general "you") should stop complaining because one rule in 1974 was written in a clear mode and then someone jumped out with a different official view and now no one in CB even know how to play their own game. This is not the way to put things down. Especially if we want to help the game grow instead of arguing for the sake of arguing.
I feel like RAW is pretty clear. Since Fire ammo gets treated as N, then there is no burning. Is this RAI? I'm not sure Do I agree with it? No, it should still work because it affects the target's equipment, not the target per se But them's the breaks
@tox I can't tell exactly what you're trying to say in that last post. Pointing to the most dominant rule for each in game situation isn't what I consider to be the best approach. I look at how the rules are structured and decide which rule is the dominant one among those involved. So I can apply it to all in game situations. I don't see that being Fire Ammo special effects because the Burnt rule is pointing to being hit by Fire ammo. Burnt is on a higher level because it doesn't rely on Fire Ammo rules, only that an attack is using fire ammo. But that's a personal choice I wouldn't hold everyone to because the rules don't make it clear. The arguing isn't helped when you make statements like, "I seriously don't know why you guys like to complicate simple things..." The rules have been continually shown to have problems. So statements that others are complicating simple things implies people are having trouble with something simple, what does that say about them? You've simplified the actual rule in TI, but I don't agree with your simplification. How can you be 100% certain 'treating them' means... turn all special ammo into normal ammo for rule activation purposes. Couldn't it mean... to treat special ammo hits as having no special effects just like normal ammo has no special effects?
In English it says "treating them as normal ammo" In Spanish it says "considerándolas como Munición Normal" In both cases it's pretty clear it is just normal ammo either way I don't see the distinction you are trying to make, even if it was a hit with "fire" ammo that has no effects, it wouldn't change anything
It would change things because if you read the activation clause for Burnt, it's only when a trooper carrying Fire Sensitive equipment is hit by Fire Ammo. So what we call/name the hit is extremely important because it dictates other skill and rule activations throughout the game. Being Immune to the effects of Fire Ammo wouldn't prevent entering the Burnt state because the name of the attack/ammo that hit hasn't changed. The Nanoscreen isn't damaged by the Fire Ammo, it's damaged by entering the Burnt state. Try applying that line from TI in other ways: the owner is immune to the special effects of the Special Ammunitions, treating them as Normal Ammunition. the owner is immune to the Spicy special effects of the Hot Peppers, treating them as Normal Peppers. In the case above you're still eating Hot Peppers. they just don't affect you the same way. So a TI trooper hit by Fire Ammo is still hit by Fire Ammo, they just don't get affected the same way.
that is what i was thinking. but an opponent disagreed with me and another local supported him. After checking, he was right, the Burnt activation clause is so saying "doesn't even need to hit" talking about rocket is incorrect. A successful dodge will prevent you losing your ODD/TO.
You can't really use real life as a comparison because the rules tell us how physiology works in game while in real life it doesn't have reality altering effects. However, if I play balls with your example, I'd say that if you're immune to the special effects of Hot Peppers and treat them as normal peppers you might still be eating Hot Peppers, but you won't enter Painful state which causes you to vomit and needs copious amounts of milk to cancel - hence the activation clause of Painful doesn't occur because to you this is just like normal peppers.
