Is Nanoscreen Burned if the user is hit with Fire ammunition and the user has Total Immunity? For example Rasails with Symbiomates or CA Spec-Op with Nanoscreen and Total Immunity.
No, because Fire is treated as Normal ammo by any model with Total. No special rules or effects, get hit by a single Normal hit of that power and choose whether to add ARM or BTS.
This one is, indeed, an interesting question, because on the Fire special ammunition refers to the weapon/equipment/skill, and refers to Fire-Sensitive, where it says the same: However, on each on the Fire-Sensitive pages, it goes with the user being affected... @ijw a mention for the Wiki: the english one has the Fire-Sensitive entry I just quoted before, but the Spanish version doesn't have any entry with "fuego" (fire) in the Tags section (and the only "vulnerabilidad" -vulnerability- is the one refering to the one countering Total Inmunity).
For fire to work despite the Total Imm, there would have to be a specific Vulnerability: Fire skill, just like Dogs have Vulnerability: Viral. Fire-sensitive is not a Total Imm exception like that.
For how i can read it (http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Fire_Special_Ammunition) to apply a Fire-Sensitive clause you need to be affected by the Fire Ammo. Ergo, no Burnt state
This is exactly why claiming Total Immunity turns special ammo INTO normal ammo is a terrible idea. I highly doubt a trooper being Totally Immune was intended to apply to their equipment as well as themselves. When a rule tells me specifically to "treat" an effect/skill/ammo as another effect/skill/ammo, what exactly happens from a rule/process point of view? From Total Immunity - "the owner is immune to the special effects of the Special Ammunitions, treating them as Normal Ammunition." GAME EXAMPLE A trooper with Total Immunity and Nanoscreen is hit by Fire special ammo. I see this happening, Option A steps: Activate any effects/skills/etc triggered by the Fire special ammo hit. Nanoscreen's Fire sensitivity activates and the Nanoscreen enters the burnt state. TI activates allowing the trooper to treat the hits effects as normal ammo effects so only makes one roll as per normal ammo, not additional rolls as per Fire special ammo. "treating them' IMO is asking us to treat the special effects of special ammo as if they were the special effects of normal ammo. In other words, there aren't any special effects. The player still gets hit by Fire special ammo explicitly for cases like this with Fire ammo and Fire sensitive gear. treat /trēt/ verb behave toward or deal with in a certain way. Not this, Option B steps: Activate any effects/skills/etc triggered by the Fire special ammo hit. Nanoscreen's Fire sensitivity activates and the Nanoscreen enters the burnt state. TI activates changing this hit to a normal ammo hit. The trooper is now hit by normal ammo instead. Remove the burnt state as that no longer occurs. Activate any effects/skills/etc triggered by the normal ammo hit. Taking into account any new activation, make rolls accordingly. Maybe this, Option C steps: Claim this is two separate hits. One on the equipment and another on the trooper. Or claim the owners immunities do not extend to their equipment. Effectively avoiding any real discussion about how TI is actually written. Edit, Options A & B, steps 2 & 3 happen simultaneously. (and spelling)
No, review http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Order_Expenditure_Sequence Applying the effects of a special ammo comes last, after all rolls have been applied and after the ammo is determined to be treated by the receiving model as normal. A, B and C are all wrong. 6. Player B declares attack with Fire Ammo. 7. Players determine MODs and Player A determines that Fire Ammo is treated by his trooper as Normal ammo. Players deterimine that Smoke ammo used by Player A causes a Face to Face. Then they make rolls. 8. Applying effects, normal ammo has no special effects and each failed ARM/BTS roll only causes a single wound, should Player A lose the FtF.
First of all, I didn't say where in the OES my example started. I only indicated it was after being hit. Which basically puts everything into #8 of the OES. Why are you applying TI during #7? Second of all, when Total Immunity says "treating them" you're making the assumption it's referring to the ammo itself and not it's effects. How do you know this for sure? Thirdly, what makes you believe the phrase/text 'treat like' means 'becomes exactly' or some variation and not the definition of the word itself? If I'm told by my boss to treat you like a friend... you don't suddenly become my friend. I simply behave as if you were my friend and do things I may only do for my friends.
I do not know what the intended interaction between trooper and its equipment is in regards to immunity, will need to check it.
Why 7: Simply put, you need to know the exact nature of what's affecting you before you can make rolls. I wrote Smoke Ammo simply to illustrate this point. At some point in this game we'll get an ammo which increases rangebands or which causes MODs like Full-Auto, and then it becomes even clearer that ammo is determined at step 7 and not 8. Treat vs become: Again, there is a simple answer; it doesn't matter whether it still is actually Fire or not. For all purposes for the receiving trooper it is Normal. Getting the Nanoscreen turned off, getting CH: Camouflage Burnt, etc etc is an effect on the receiving trooper. And if the receiving trooper treats Fire as Normal, that means that when you look at effects affecting your trooper, you see there is none! Nanoscreens don't get turned off by Normal.
I'm not sure how smoke ammo illustrates that point. I see using smoke ammo as an attack with a grenade or grenade launcher. The special effects of smoke special ammo are then applied later in the OES. In the grand scheme of things it absolutely 100% matters what the attack or ammo is called at every point of an order. Things are triggered/activated based on the use of other things (skills/items/equipment etc). Changing the names of these things during the OES or any other process can drastically affect the outcome. I only wanted to discuss the meaning of 'treat' because others are claiming TI turns SA into NA as a means to argue their interpretation. Which can have significant repercussions down the line. That was my agenda. Edit, @Mahtamori Thematically having TI apply to a troopers equipment seems very wrong to me. I didn't make it clear before because I was more concerned about my agenda but I think the trooper and it's equipment are separate in this case. I see nothing in the rules to suggest TI should apply to a troopers equipment. So just like you'd move special ammo into #7, I'd treat the equipment and trooper separately and handle each outcome on it's own vs fire ammo.
A trooper's equipment is never hit, it's the trooper that is. Burnt is the state which removes Fire-sensitive equipment's functionality and that a trooper only enters when carrying Fire-sensitive equipment and taking a hit from a weapon using Fire ammo - since the trooper is never subjected to Fire ammo when Totally Immune, they can never enter Burnt even if 4 others hit by the same template suffers Fire and thus Burnt. And that, by the way, is also a reason why the attack is never converted, because otherwise we'd have the same conversation about secondary targets when one target is Totally Immune.
Lets look at this another way: Fire -Sensitive indicates it can affect equipment and doesn't mention the trooper at all. But there are no actual rules to follow here so this doesn't matter anyway. Fire-Sensitive. Fire Special Ammunition affects this weapon or piece of Equipment. The Fire ammo rules state clearly a trooper affected by Fire ammo carrying Fire Sensitive equipment will enter the Burnt state. But this rule can't affect the trooper as TI treats this as normal ammo effects. Additionally, a trooper affected by Fire Special Ammunition who has Fire-Sensitive Special Skills or Equipment will enter the Burnt state, regardless of the result of the ARM Roll. The rule for entering the Burnt state however doesn't rely on any special effects written in Fire Ammo. Only that you're hit from a weapon using Fire ammo. So this is why the interpretation from TI of 'treating them' is important. BURNT Activation Troopers with Special Skills or pieces of Equipment with the Fire-Sensitive Trait enter this state by receiving a hit from a weapon using Fire Special Ammunition, regardless of the result of their ARM Roll. Overall, I don't see what difference it makes if a TI trooper is immune to the special effects of Fire ammo in this case. There are other rule interactions that cause the Burnt state. I'd say the effect mentioning Fire Sensitivity in the Fire ammo rules is simply a reminder. TI removes that reminder, but it by no means prevents entering the Burnt state. I still come to the same conclusion, The Nanoscreen carrying trooper enters the Burnt state.
Total immunity tells you how to resolve special effects of the ammunition on the owner of the Total Immunity skill. It goes on to explain how you alter the normal ARM or BTS rolls associated with these ammo types. Burnt describes that if a trooper 'receives a hit' fromFire ammunition, their Fire-Sensitive equipment enters the Burnt state regardless of the outcome of ARM roll. Note that Burnt state does not reference being affected by the ammunition, it refers to receiving a hit. Beyond all that, it's a Mr. Fantastic Level stretch to claim that Total Immunity extends from the owner of the skill to his equipment.
If you're Total Imm without Vuln: Fire, then you aren't hit by Fire ammo, you're hit by Normal. There's nothing from special ammo rules that affects you, at all. It's just not Fire, it's a Normal shot. You can't be Burnt by Normal ammo.
It takes off whole "Fire ammo", not just "Burning", it's not even an "N save", it's an "N hit". It's a reverse Midas touch, all TI touches turns to Normal ;)
yup, totally agree my man no reason for it to be treated as one thing but still retain the side effects of another
