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Dodge smoke

Discussion in '[Archived]: N3 Rules' started by SpecOP6903, Apr 20, 2019.

  1. SpecOP6903

    SpecOP6903 Member

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    I am relatively inexperienced with the game and have seen lots of battle reports etc where Dodge smoke has been a thing but I'm not sure I understand it and can't find it as a thing in the rules... Can anybody help?
     
  2. Asreon_

    Asreon_ Confused bardic artist

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    First welcome to the game and forum.

    One place to look would be the wiki: http://infinitythewiki.com/de/Smoke_Special_Ammunition

    Basically you can use smoke to block incoming shots, you just have to put the template where it is in between your model and the shooting one. As long as the shooter does not have an Multispectral Visor Lvl 2 or 3 (http://infinitythewiki.com/de/Multispectral_Visor) it then becomes a Face to Face roll. When you win the smoke template goes down and the shot is cancelled, if the shooters wins and/or you fail your roll no template is put down. If the shooter won you are also hit of course. Beware that it will not help you against direct template weapons, only a normal dodge can do that.

    I hope that helps.
     
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  3. JoKeR

    JoKeR HAWZA Instructor
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    well - this interaction have a lot of nuanses, but to be short lets try to settle it.
    if you have weapon loaded with Smoke or Eclipse Smoke ammunition, you can not only use it to trow smoke on a table, but also in the same time perform maneuver called smoke dodge.
    it works ONLY against BS attacks, which target's your model, carrying smoke (you cant protect ally, only yourself).
    You must declare trow/shoot a smoke, & place it so it conseal you from enemy LoF during WHOLE order. So if it is your active turn, & you moves, you should try to obscure all path that can be seen by your opponent models.
    the LoF must be effectively obscured, so ordinary smoke for example not work against MSV2+, which can ignore it.
    if all done right - you roll for placing smoke become FtF roll with all attacks from which you become consealed by smoke.
    in reactive turn smoke dodge NOT let you move, also it NOT same as a ordinary Dodge, so not use dodge modifiers, just modifiers for smoke weapon range & for enemy skills such a surprise shoot.
    all the shoots from which you cant conseal yourself by a smoke still be normal rolls, also
    it wont help against Direct teamplate weapons - so you CAN trow a smoke, but flamer or chain rifle still hits you.

    of course if you be succesfull - the smoke template on a table also helps to hide your models from further attacks in subsequent orders.

    PS welcome to the Forum.
     
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  4. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Hello and welcome!
    "Smoke dodge" is an incorrect and very misleading way of saying "BS Attack using Smoke ammo", it comes from the ammunition having the "Special Dodge" trait as you can see in the links provided by Asreon_. As you are a new player I highly recommend that you do not use the word "Dodge" in conjunction with Smoke ever, as it'll only lead to headaches. Try "distraction" or something similar instead.

    What smoke does is; any attacker whose LOF the template would block after it has been placed can be distracted by the BS Attack using Smoke ammo, which allows the shooter to potentially avoid attacks against himself (that is to say; a Face to Face roll). It'll protect the Smoke shooter and only the Smoke shooter since the template's LOF-blocking qualities only happen at the end of the Order.

    Here's the game's most important rules page, always refer to it! http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Order_Expenditure_Sequence
     
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  5. SpecOP6903

    SpecOP6903 Member

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    Many thanks for your replies. This now makes more sense to me.
    It's a better option in aro using high phys start than risking a shot on low bs with mods. It's similar to another point I finally worked out which was using pistol to shot instead of other weapons to max the range bonus.
     
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  6. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
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    Remember to add your range bonus if throwing the smoke template within 8"
     
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  7. Azuset

    Azuset Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for adding that because this is a question I have had.
     
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  8. JoKeR

    JoKeR HAWZA Instructor
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    @Azuset to success you must win all FtF unfortunatly. if you lose at least one - smoke wont be placed.
    for example in haqqislam sometimes better use Ghazi impetuous order to trow smoke WITHOUT obscuring LoF.
    in this case trowing smoke & shooting would be NOT FtF (cause LoF not blocked), but just normal rolls. you lose 5 points Muttawi'ah, but get smoke to cover his buddies movement.

    Also good tactic to place one of them deep in your deployment zone, behind total cover, activate him first with impetuous, run without giving LoF to anyone & trow smoke to cover area there other Ghazi would come with their impetuous orders.
     
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  9. SpecOP6903

    SpecOP6903 Member

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    OK, a follow up then.... My myrmidon in a 4man enomatarchos sees your fusilier advancing with a short mov skill, can I aro to throw smoke? You declare shoot as 2nd action and I win the F2F as my phys + range mod + dice roll equals better than your combined roll. Smoke goes down. Play continues?
    What bonus does my fireteam grant me here?
     
  10. solkan

    solkan Well-Known Member

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    You’re using a BS Attack to throw smoke. You’re in a fireteam (with three or more members) so that BS Attack has a +1B bonus, even for the ARO.

    So when you ARO throw smoke you’re two dice to put down two templates (in the same spot) rather than one die to place one template (FAQ makes you choose the same point for both in ARO).

    Don’t scoff at second chances to put down smoke. :)
     
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  11. SpecOP6903

    SpecOP6903 Member

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    But I use the phys start? Correct?
    Also, if I was in active turn instead, if I moved for 1st shirt skill, and you declared bs att in aro, would I simply dodge, moving the necessary inches? Or throw smoke or both?
     
  12. JoKeR

    JoKeR HAWZA Instructor
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    @SpecOP6903 yes, you use BS attack to trow smoke, but smoke grenade is a BS weapon with "trowing" trait. so you use PH stat instead of actual BS. if you would use Smoke grenade launcher - then it would be BS & for sure another rangeband.
    in active turn ANY Dodge NEWER give you inches of movement.
    Also as @Mahtamori & @solkan explained earlier - trowing a Smoke is NOT a dodge at all, it BS attack. it just bad wording in rules which uses "Special Dodge" concept.
    because of it it always a probem to explain, but we CANT ignore it as @Mahtamori propose cause rules uses "Special dodge" wording
     
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  13. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    I didn't say you should ignore that it's called "special dodge", I said you should not call the action "smoke dodge" or "dodge" at all, because it's not a dodge.
     
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  14. solkan

    solkan Well-Known Member

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    There's two weapons that use the Smoke ammo: Smoke Grenades; and Light Smoke Grenade Launcher. Because Smoke Grenades are a thrown weapon, they're a BS Attack using your PH stat's value and then modified by all of the usual BS Attack modifiers like range bands. (The Light Smoke Grenade Launcher uses the regular BS attribute. I bring it up because my not-randomly-chosen example fireteam has one. Not all smoke is thrown, just most of it. :upside_down_face:)

    Note: If the Active player declare Dodge, there's no movement for that Dodge. Only Dodges declared by the Reactive Player get the 2" move.

    In the active turn, you'd have to choose one or the other. There'd be two main situations:

    1. The reactive models declare ARO attacks against someone other than the fireteam leader

    Dodge and Reset are the only two skills you have the fireteam members perform if you want them to have a face-to-face roll against the attacks. Because if you declare anything else, only the fireteam leader is going to roll and the fireteam leader can't protect team members against the enemy.

    2. The reactive models declare ARO attacks against the fireteam leader.

    The Fireteam leader is going to roll dice and perform face-to-face rolls like you'd expect from all of the non-fireteam examples.

    For example:

    A Spiral Corps triad (two Reex Escorts and Kriigel Agent with the smoke grenade launcher) is surrounded by a gang of three vicious Pan O Fusiliers. It's the Spiral Corps player's active turn.

    The triad activates, makes the Kriigel Agent leader, and declares Move. Each Fusilier declares BS Attack with their combi rifles at a different member of the fireteam.

    If the second skill of the fireteam is Dodge, it's going to be three different BS Attack vs. Dodge rolls for each pair.

    If the second skill of the fireteam is BS Attack Smoke, it will be only the Kriigel Agent getting a face-to-face roll against the Fusillier targeting it. The Fusiliers shooting at the Reex Escorts will get normal rolls.

    (If the fireteam leader had smoke grenades, it would still be the same situation, differing using the chosen base attribute instead.)

    --
    In the reactive turn, that Spiral Corps triad gets a lot better strategic position against those Fusiliers. Because each member of the triad is going to get a +1B to their BS Attacks AROs if those Fusiliers activate.

    --
    And, as everyone else has written, "Special Dodge" on Smoke is one of the contenders for worst terminology choice in the Infinity rules. It's just an attempt to point out that Smoke is going to be face-to-face against attacks so it has a similar purpose to using Dodge (just like Change Facing has a similar function to Dodge).
     
    #14 solkan, Apr 20, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2019
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  15. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    This. The "special dodge" works by obscuration and isn't really a dodge at all.

    It'd be better if, in English, the trait was called "Obscure" rather than "Special Dodge". Smokes of various types could be referred to as obscurants.
     
    #15 inane.imp, Apr 22, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2019
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