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Does going Prone grant an ARO?

Discussion in '[Archived]: N3 Rules' started by MikeS1173, Jan 28, 2018.

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  1. solkan

    solkan Well-Known Member

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    Step 1 says "will activate". Yet Step 2 says you're using the order to activate the trooper.
    1. Activation: The Active Player declares which trooper will activate.
    2. Order expenditure: The Active Player removes from the table, or otherwise marks as spent,. the Order Marker he uses to activate the trooper
    So you have Step 1 "This is what I am going to do." Followed by Step 2 "... and now I I pay to do it."
     
  2. toadchild

    toadchild Premeasure

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    Yes, great point. Move-shoot and shoot-move should produce the same outcomes. It should be equivalent to shooting and using your move to hide behind the wall you were peeking out from.
     
  3. Kazgarom

    Kazgarom Member

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    Great point but there are game examples where this is not the case. I declare a movement with my fireteams consisting of unidrons and an umbra hacker in repeater range. The Umbra got stealth. The reactive player can hack the unidrons or declare resett but he can never use a hacking program against the umbra hacker which can active in the second short skill. Would I use the hacking program with the umbra first, the hacker would be allowed to react towards him. (This just got FAQed)

    I stand in 4 inch in front of an enemy. I declare Shoot. The ARO can be shoot or dodge etc but not cc. If my 2nd short skill is movement in B2B I can get their without the enemy having the chance to announce CC, different if I would have moved first. This can be used when you want bringt the Beast from a Kerail in Melee with a strong melee char but want to shoot him first and you can already see him.

    I just think the wording isn't really perfect here.
    1. Activation: The Active Player declares which trooper will activate.
    2. Order expenditure: The Active Player removes from the table, or otherwise marks as spent, the Order Marker he uses to activate the trooper.
    3. Declaration of the First Skill: The Active Player declares the first Short Skill of the Order, or the Entire Order he wants to use. If movements are declared, the player measures the movement distance and places the trooper at the final point of its movement.
    You could also say: First it tells about something in the future. So it doesn't activate. Step 2 is only the marking of the order you gonna use. At Step 3 you finally activate the unit when it does something.

    Also alot stuff happens retroactive in this game too. A Unit in Camo Marker State can be seen from two reactive player troopers. It moves in B2B contact with one of them around a corner so it can't be seen anymore from the other enemy trooper as it is in total cover. Still the unit is open from the start of the activation and not just a split second before it enters B2B.

    Is there maybe any statement that got it the wording clearer than this?
    I don't want to break the game etc. I think this might need a small rewording or an FAQ in the future so it is 100% clear.



    EDIT: The camo marker that moves in to B2B is only revealed for the movement. If the activation begins before the movement he would there still be in Marker State and delay would be an ARO option.
     
    #23 Kazgarom, Apr 15, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2019
  4. Sabin76

    Sabin76 Well-Known Member

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    This has more to do with what information you are acting with than the timing of individual skills. The "two short skills / one ARO" sequence is so that the Active player can force the reactive player to decide on something without full knowledge and then the active player can choose the better course of action based on what the reactive player chooses. This has nothing to do with when the actual skills "happen" during the order (resolution).

    There is only one case that I know of where the timing of actual skills is not, strictly speaking, "all-at-once" and that is with template weapons. Usually, you can declare a point with a BS attack that favors you once all the information is known. With template weapons, you must lay down the template as soon as you declare the skill and that is the only place it will be for the order.

    As for the wording in the order expenditure sequence... it seems to me that the latest you could argue that a trooper is activated is in step 2. Step 3 doesn't use the word at all. Consider the problems people had with TA and NCO in fireteams before the FAQ. The timing of activating, spending the order, then announcing the fireteam leader, lead to an FAQ being required to make it work how it was intended (that is, that a TA/NCO profile did not need to begin as the team leader in order for them to be able to use their respective special orders).
     
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  5. Kazgarom

    Kazgarom Member

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    I have to disagree with you on this. The Umbra posses Stealth which isn't broken until the 2nd Short skill and is therefore unavailable as target. This is not a missing information but a trait that is not yet deactivated cause of the activation of another skill. As you have legal targets before you have to react against them.

    When you say, everything happens at the same time, announcing, moving, shooting etc. and the first thing your unit does is being prone (it starts prone and not goes prone and than moves) you can also argue that there was no time before this skill and it can't be seen.

    Otherwise a unit would also be always for a short period in a marker state allowing the ARO delay even if the first skill would remove the marker state as during the activation the unit could be seen in marker state BEFORE it did anything,
     
  6. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    It starts its movement Prone, not its order.
     
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  7. colbrook

    colbrook Grenade Delivery Specialist

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    Ah yes, but the debate has seemingly moved on to if you can really count the trooper as Activated during the Activation step of the OES.
     
  8. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Yes, it makes me sad. IJW has already supplied the quote for that. The criteria for AROing is "has Line of Fire (LoF) to a trooper being activated by the Active Player" (emphasis added). Note the tense - it doesn't matter if the trooper is yet activated, it matters only that it is about to be.
     
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  9. Sabin76

    Sabin76 Well-Known Member

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    That's working with incomplete information, though. The Umbra could NOT attack, or do anything that breaks stealth and you still wouldn't have an ARO against him. In choosing to break stealth, the Umbra opens up the possibility of an ARO, but if the reactive player already chose an action, they can't change it. Stealth is broken for the entire order, but the choices have already been made. That's the power of the active turn.
     
  10. Kazgarom

    Kazgarom Member

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    The point was, that move + shoot or shoot + move should always result in exactly the same consequences. I just showed that this is not always the case. So it already exists in the game that it matters what skill you use first.

    Exactly a trooper that is active not that I am going to have active. You can also argue that everything happens at the same time. So there is no delay between mentioning that you gonna use that trooper and actually using the first skill. It's not standing there IDLE waving at everybody I will do something and than start.

    If there is a delay however, this could mean that you can always use delay against a trooper in marker state even if his first action removes that state from him as on that brief window of activation it would still be in marker state and therefore a legal target for delay which would force the active player to announce all skills before the reactive player.
     
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