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Fatality 2 with B5...

Discussion in '[Archived]: N3 Rules' started by Zewrath, Mar 27, 2019.

  1. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
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    @Section9
    You can also add Marksmanship LX in the list
    Cranes, Lunah hit on 21
    Posthuman mk5 hit on 22
    Teucer and Grunts link hit on 23

    To add to the link team shotguns PanO is quite blessed, a fusilier link with CSU reaches 21 as do Bagh Mari, bolts reach 22 (13+6+3) and orcs, Hospitalers and Father Knights reach 23 (not 22)

    And to be fair when you reach shotgun range outflanking the enemy to not have cover is relatively easy, BS 23 at B3 is quite a safety to be in the open.
     
  2. Sabin76

    Sabin76 Well-Known Member

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    Not usually. If you are that far away, it's very likely you won't be able to get into a position where they will be out of cover.
     
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  3. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
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    @Section9 you can go with whoever you like, but his reading of the Spanish text is doubtful, and for the English text it’s flat-out wrong unless the text gets FAQed by CB.
     
  4. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    Everyone, thank you for the examples of BS20+.

    But as @Mahtamori says, the shotgunners need a good 60+points of link team and a whole lot of orders spent to get within 8", while FAT2 troops can make those shots from -3 range.


    My reading of his point was that there is a very critical difference between the English and Spanish versions of the rule that needs to be addressed. Is that correct @xagroth ?
     
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  5. A Mão Esquerda

    A Mão Esquerda Deputy Hexahedron Officer

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    Except it’s not a “critical” difference, it’s flavor of writing at worst.
     
  6. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    Always critting on a roll of 1, even when the model is at BS21, and therefore making a 15% chance of crit per die instead of the 10% chance in the English version is not a 'flavor' difference.

    That's CB (and anyone else playing the Spanish rules) playing a completely different game than most of the rest of the world!
     
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  7. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
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    Roughly speaking, the Spanish text says a 1 on the die. The issue is that Attributes over twenty alter the result on the die. Which means that you can’t get a 1.

    The hostile environment rules, for comparison, explicitly state that it’s ‘always the natural number rolled on the dice’.
     
  8. A Mão Esquerda

    A Mão Esquerda Deputy Hexahedron Officer

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    Flavor of the translation, and it says “result”. And any “result” is modified by an attribute over 20. The interpretation is straining at a gnat while swallowing a camel whole, an all too common occurrence it seems.
     
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  9. Alf O'Mega

    Alf O'Mega Member

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    So I’ve lost the exact thread of this issue but I will say this - you absolutely cannot always literally translate between languages and arrive at the same meaning. Is it *actually* played differently in Spain? Surely that’s the only issue?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
    #329 Alf O'Mega, Apr 15, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2019
  10. Zewrath

    Zewrath Elitist Jerk

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    Why is any of this relevant to anything, specifically Fat2?

    You do understand that what you’re describing are either Long Skills that requires good positioning and situational usage? Or shotguns which are accepted by everyone to reach this number because it requires a massive order investment, akin to that of CC, and is considered a reward for that player because he’s outplaying and exploiting the opponents bad positioning and overextension?

    Fat2 has neither of these components, it simply starts from the deployment zone and never stops being obnoxious. Regardless of cover, ARM, distance and visual MOD’s. It makes 1 unit good against all targets in the entire game, with no specialisation, no positioning nor any thought process involved. Stop insulting the intelligence of the people on this forum by insinuating that somehow MM:X and Shotguns are even remotely similar to Fat2. They aren’t.
     
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  11. Barrogh

    Barrogh Well-Known Member

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    It would be cool if we were able to replace this thing with properly treated terms described in some sort of glossary and imposed onto anyone who writes rules or their translation, by the way.
     
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  12. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
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    The discussion you chose to ignore was there are shooting units in the game already that have the same or better critical odds than 10%
    Frankly if you play against a competent player you will need the same order expenditure and positioning as these link teams and MMLX with FATL2 but that is another discussion, the discussion above was if they were any units and these are the units. (should probably add Mobile Brigadas and Wildcats to the list with 21)

    That is something that is under consideration.
     
  13. Nenyx

    Nenyx Well-Known Member

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    But BSG don't have 4-5 burst - the problem with fatality L2 is also that this is on high burst weapons

    EDIT: same things for the various MMX examples - you don't get a 40% crit chance with burst 1.
     
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  14. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    What discussion is he ignoring? This entire line of arguments were started by you in response to @Zewrath and @Nuada Airgetlam by you claiming Tarik's and Sheeskin's FAT2 is inferior to BS 21+ which is achievable by several units in the game, something you "proved" by ignoring position, range, and manufacturing perfect circumstances - which is what the discussion is now about.

    And no, you shouldn't add Brigada or Wildcast to the list. It's pointless, because they can't get those crit odds from 24" away against a Kaplan in cover. They can't even get those odds against a Kaplan at 2" without cover.
     
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  15. Zewrath

    Zewrath Elitist Jerk

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    First of all, Fat2 Spitfire have 41% chance to score a single crit. Already it's miles ahead than B1 10% to crit MM:X, it's not even remotely the same and it's astonishing that anyone would make these kinds of claims with a straight face. You seem to be under the mistaken assumption that because Fat2 gives 10% critical chance per die, therefore it's the same as MM:X/shotgun that reaches B21 because it also has a 10% chance to score a critical hit per die. I'm sorry but this is a nonsensical equivalency, akin to the Syllogism defined by Aristotle; "A stone can't fly, mother can't fly, therefore mother is a stone!".

    Finally, B3 BS23 Shotguns have a 38,5% chance of scoring a single crit. None of your extreme examples are even remotely able to achieve the same % of critical hit chance as a Fat2 Spitfire in link, meaning your original claim of "this sort of thing already exists in this game" is demonstrably and empirically incorrect.

    PS: This is just talking about numbers, none of this even talks about the true toxic nature of the rule, which is about how many core elements this rule ignores in this game, namely positioning, MOD's, range and ARM.
     
    #335 Zewrath, Apr 15, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2019
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  16. zlavin

    zlavin Well-Known Member

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    The reading of the spanish version is perfect. A word by word translation will be: "...any result of 1 acheived ON THE DICE by its user..."

    I know that the english version doesn't use the word "dice" and that is a huge difference in order to understand how the rule is supposed to work.

    And this part of the rule "...even when the Modified Attribute is lower than 1" is the same for both spanish and english. And for me the spanish version makes more sense becouse for this effect I have to look always at the dice result doesn't matter the Mods one way or another.
    But in the english version if I have a MOD over 20 the first part of the rule doesn't apply but if I have a MOD lower than 1 then it does.

    Just saying that if the english version is right the spanish needs a better wording.
     
  17. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
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    Is it toxic though?

    Also you assume always the best situation for Fat2 and not for others, I said on its basis FaT2 giving a 10% on the dice already exists and it does, and similar odds exist, at 4 dice for a year FAT2 has not create either issues prophesied, not sure if at 5 dice it will.

    Edit Question have you included on your stats above 20 calculation the dice rolls denied by the opponent? I also do not think the reality of the actual dice rolling will make the statistics reliably manifest on the table.
     
    #337 psychoticstorm, Apr 15, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2019
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  18. melkiach

    melkiach PheroBoosted

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    @psychoticstorm you should experience first a few games against them, and then, you will tell me! :p

    The FAT2 cores are... quite... hardcore
     
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  19. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
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    If you've been following the other discussions, you know that I agree with that, and have posted a very similar translation.

    That's not where there is disagreement.

    The Attributes above 20 rule alters the result of the die roll. The result of the die roll is, literally, the result on the die.

    Please compare the wording on Fatality to the wording for Hostile Environments, where it talks about the "natural number rolled on the dice"/"el número natural obtenido al lanzar el dado".

    Sorry, I don't understand. :-(

    Attributes below 1 don't alter the die roll. Could you explain how this is related to Attributes over 20 and Fatality?
     
  20. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    I wouldn't call attacks against ODD snipers at long range or point blank "ideal" situations for a Spitfire.

    Additionally, the units you list, @psychoticstorm , all have lower actual crit frequency due to lower burst (and in the cases where they outperform Tarik+4 they do so because of increased win chance thanks to adding on the dice, not from critting.).

    To reiterate this, as nearly everyone's reaction to the rule from the very beginning: putting this rule on a high-burst unit is the mistake. This wouldn't be nearly as much of an issue if it was Atalanta or Knauf who had the rule.

    (That, and blatantly not actually increasing the unit's cost due to this very powerful rule is a bit of an issue. Can I please not pay for Guijia's ARM value? Might make it worth using the )
     
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