Does going Prone grant an ARO?

Yes, you can react. From http://infinitythewiki.com/en/ARO:_Automatic_Reaction_Order

A trooper owned by the Reactive Player can declare an ARO if any of the following is true:

• It has Line of Fire (LoF) to a trooper being activated by the Active Player.
• An enemy trooper activates within its Zone of Control (ZC).
• It has a Special Skill or piece of Equipment allowing reaction to enemy actions without LoF.

There's no way to get around the trooper being in LoF when it gets activated by spending an Order on it.

 

hehe I understand his confusion as my group had a similar issue at one point.
Turns out there is at least one way to start in Lof when activated but not count as in LoF for the rest of the order.
I am not really sure why they used two separate rules for such similar situations but the dismount rules will let you do it.

 

So the thing you need to keep in mind is that you aren't declaring an ARO against a particular declaration of a Short Movement Skill. AROs are declared against the spending of the Order, meaning the Activation of the trooper. Before the trooper can go prone, or move, or shoot, or any of those things, it is first Activated by having an Order spent on it. This immediately makes it so the trooper will be eligible to be ARO'd against. The fact that you then declare to go Prone doesn't change the fact that you started off the Order by Activating while you were in Line of Fire.

I'm ... not sure what you're trying to say here. Can you elaborate?

 

He's saying that because dismount uses the pilot profile for the entire order, you activate the TAG, dismount the pilot behind said TAG out of LoF of the trooper that was staring you down, then get away Scott free. The TAG activated in LoF, but the pilot is out of LoF for the entire order.

I am dubious of this, myself, but I'm pretty sure that's what he's saying.

 

I'd love to see a source on that being how it works.

 

Well when I asked the first time this is what IJW confirmed.
His source was

• By declaring Move, a trooper may Mount or Dismount a Motorcycle, TAG, Vehicle, etc. at the start of his Movement at no cost, the new troop profile will be applied during the whole sequence of the Order.

IJW's emphasis in red.
http://infinitytheforums.com/forum/topic/48973-new-player-tag-questions/

• By declaring Move, a trooper may go Prone or revert back to the Normal standing state at the start of his Movement at no cost. Remember that troopers have reduced mobility while Prone.
• By declaring Move, a trooper may Mount or Dismount a Motorcycle, TAG, Vehicle, etc. at the start of his Movement at no cost, the new troop profile will be applied during the whole sequence of the Order.

So the timing on this is that Prone is at the start of the movement, Dismount is applied retroactively at the start of the order.
I am not really sure why they made them two different rules but I could be missing an important interaction someplace. Or more likely it was a oversight.

 

The "empty" TAG still has a profile and has still been activated, wouldn't that allow you to ARO by shooting the empty TAG (and also hitting the pilot if you use a template weapon like a missile) ?

 

How has it been activated? Your opponent has declared an order that stipulates that it is the pilot that's been activated for the entire sequence of the order.

 

You mean in the thread you just linked, where IJW immediately followed up and clarified multiple times that you can't activate both the TAG profile and the Pilot profile in the same Order? Your example of breaking the game in that thread is illegal.

The PILOT can dismount from the TAG, using the TAG as a screen from LoF to prevent AROs. This is not the same thing as first activating the TAG, and then activating the Pilot, to forcibly negate previously valid AROs. You're purposefully trying to orchestrate a situation to break the game, and it is not a legal declaration.

Edit: Realized I was responding to statements from the other thread. Sorry for the somewhat aggressive tone.

 

Don't worry about tone, I am thick skinned.
Anyway it seamed pretty clear to me he was talking about movement and dismounting, however you are right, forcing you to declare the profile (Tag or pilot) at activation fixes the issue. I like that one

Yes.

 

I guess the question is, when is the trooper actually activated.

Looking at the following pages of the WIKI
http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Order_Expenditure_Sequence
http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Structure_of_an_Order

Actually it never really tells you at which point they are in the "activated" state.
1. Activation: You have to name the unit/trooper you will activate. - This part is called activation, but also declaring to a future point of the unit being activated. You may want to say it is already activated at this first step.
2. Order expenditure: At this point you mark the order you use to activate the trooper. - That's the point were you saying the trooper gets activated. Actually it only reads as marking the order to spent you used to activate the trooper.
3. Declaration of the First Skill: This could be move and combined with going prone. - This could be the last step at which point the unit could be counted as activated. If this is the case no LoF could be drawn as it would start prone.

Structure of an Order states, that an Order consists of 2 Short Movement Skills or 1 Short Movement and 1 Short Skill or 1 Entire Order Skill.

For myself I would combine these statements into, the trooper is activated with the first skill. Just saying you will do it is not enough for it and show that you spent an order is obligatory so you don't cheat (not spending an order at all). It would also make sense as the trooper counts as activated as soon as it does anything and would be in line with the dismounting rule changing the Silhouette right from the start.

It would be nice if anybody could clarify at which point and why the trooper is counted as activated.

 

I'd expend the question to not only do he gets an ARO because you activated. But can he use that ARO to shoot, considering that he has to pick a point in your movement where you were visible. So, maybe you did activate while standing up, but maybe you did perform your whole Move skill while Prone for the entire duration of it.

 

Dismounting is a special case because it was FAQ’d to essentially apply retroactively:
Q: When Mounting or Dismounting, which profile is activated?
A: The new Troop Profile is the one that is activated for the entire Order sequence. The other profile does not count as having been activated.

Prone doesn’t go quite that far, and instead just says that it applies at the start of the move.

That means that if the pilot dismounts from a TAG, or a motorcycle driver dismounts, you don’t get an ARO against the TAG or the motorcycle but just the pilot/rider.

But, again, if you Activate and declare a move going prone, you still generate AROs from activating.

 

There are a couple cases where you can dismount into total cover and avoid AROs. I'm ok with this; it's a pretty minor effect and your model is switching to a generally inferior profile in order to do it.

 

Can you please give me a link where it tells you at which point a unit is considered activated.

http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Order_Expenditure_Sequence

Most people are telling me they are used to play it when you mark the order as spent.

2. Order expenditure: The Active Player removes from the table, or otherwise marks as spent, the Order Marker he uses to activate the trooper.

That's the actual text in the wiki to this part of the Sequence. It tells you that you have to show that you use an order to activate a unit to activate it. As this has to be done before making any short skills is to avoid cheating (not using any order at all) it is logical that it has to be done before the short skill. I doesn't say that this part actually counts as activating.

1. Activation: The Active Player declares which trooper will activate.

This is the first step which is called activation. Even before using an order you have to announce which trooper you will use. Again this is pretty much essential to tell the other player what you are gonna do to and have a fair game.
But it is also written in will future. This mean it refers to something that will happen not that has happend or is happening. So while being called Activation the trooper is not activated at this point.

3. Declaration of the First Skill: The Active Player declares the first Short Skill of the Order, or the Entire Order he wants to use. If movements are declared, the player measures the movement distance and places the trooper at the final point of its movement.

In step 3 your unit actively does er first Short Skill or Entire Order. As never clearly mentioned in the other 2 steps this has to be the activation if the other 2 aren't the activation. But if this is the activation the unit starts the short movement skill Prone.

http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Prone

• When a trooper declares the Short Movement Skill Move, its player may indicate that it will go Prone.
• By doing so, the trooper begins its Short Movement Skill Move already in the Prone state. The Short Movement Skill Move is therefore executed while Prone and the consequent reduction to the trooper's MOV and S applies during its movement.

Hm than the question is where does the movement start. Let's say my first Order is shoot and second order is movement with go Prone. Did I shoot before I move? This would make me able to simply dodge AROs if I don't like them. For example when one or more Hidden deployment units react I go Prone with the 2nd Skill Activation and since they need to pick a part for measurement during the movement they cant see, so no ARO afterwards.
To avoid this you need to allow to shoot at the unit at the first part of the order. But this wouldn't be during the movement. At this point you are at the point of activation. And again we get to the question at which point a unit is considered to be activated.

To sum it up:
A unit of the active player in partial cover is visible to unit of the reactive player. If it goes prone it would be in total cover.

1. You can ARO before the unit uses their first skill as you think the unit is either activated by Step 1 or Step 2 of the Order Expenditure Sequence.
2. You think the unit doesn't produce an ARO as its activated with their first skill and this skill starts prone in total cover.
3. You think measurement is the most important part which must be done at a point during the movement and therefore you can even negate AROs other troopers got with the first skill if you go prone with your second short skill.

Which one is the legal one? Why?
Why are the other not the right reading of the rules?​

 

You can think of it as an extension of the "all at once" rule. You start the order standing, then you fall prone, then you can move at half-speed. Due to the way time works in Infinity, I can shoot you at any of those positions if I have LoF.

 

I think this is the crux of it. Because of the "all-at-once" rule, the only way this doesn't break the game is if the trooper is simultaneously standing and prone at the beginning of the movement.

It's my understanding that the two bullet points you referenced in your post are dealing with two slightly different things. The first is simply about when you can declare that your trooper will go prone. The second prevents you from ending your movement prone (taking advantage of full movement). The idea is that if you decide to go prone, you must do it from the beginning of your movement.

However, I will concede that it is worded in a way that can be misconstrued. That said, it's a bit like biotechvore and dogged. One reading of the rules breaks the game, so don't do that.

 

Thank you for all those great answers. =)
I can't think of a real abuse if you're first action would be starting prone and generating no ARO to begin with, but I might miss some really nasty stuff here. And you are right, the game should never get broken through a rule (looking at point 3 with 2nd short skill movement).

I think it would be great if in a future FAQ this could be corrected to show how it is actually done. So people like me don't get a problem when two opinions come up and we start reading rules word by word… ^^"

So in other words:
A unit is activated before it declares its first Skill. Because of the "all-at-once" rule the unit will need to go prone and is therefore considered standing and prone and having multiple silhouettes at once (at least for a part) for one order and produces ARO to any unit being able to see any of those points during the order sequence.
The prone profile of a trooper is a different case than the multiple profiles of other units (TAGs, Symbiont Armor, Mounted…) and follow it's own rules.

Please correct me if I got anything wrong.

 

Or be allowed to shoot back not just during the Move skill, but during the Shoot skill too. You don't always have to shoot during movement. Some model will never move because they are doing a long order for instance, so you can shoot back during that entire skill.

Shooting back during the Shoot skill (in a shoot+move situation), would still be different than shooting back at the "not having done any skills yet" point. On the other hand though, move+shoot and shoot+move are interchangeable and should result in the same case. So i do agree with playing i can move prone, and then you aro shoot me and i short skill shoot you.