Yeah, Nazroth just texted about those sugestion yestoday. I don't really have an opinion about them but if it is true that it would be too encompassing rewrite critical hit in that manner, then, as stated earlier in this thread, it's much more sensible to persue a local rule change, rather than a new edition-esque change.
Relevant: Article about how Problematic is Fatality Level 2? https://underbourakssun.wordpress.c...YrODcv2ge-rsCoF75VxAKnQqfTAu7buKEWmUfyVlWf5U8 Not my article, I haven't checked the maths.
The math is solid the one error thaynalmost throws it out completely is the definition of a wound. Most of the time the conversation is in how likely is the model to hit. Fatality is a crit ... So hitting is only part of the issue. Crits avoid cover and armor so not only is there a bump in chance to hit but it doesn't matter what type of troop you are and how hvy armor is you take a wound 10% of the time in a single shot and that goes up a fair amount when you roll 5 or even 6 dice. I think the rule is not per se bad but should be very limited to models that cannot A link or B have above 3 shot weapons.
It was asked for FAT2 to be given only to low B units like snipers or Missile Launchers... so yeah. The biggest ouch is that CB gave the skill precisely to the highest burst units (aside from the Hyperrapid magnetic cannons only a few units in the whole game have).
The article is a profound waste of time though. It's basically boils down to "Fat2 is basically like mods, yo!" when tested against a shitty lone fusilier. Hillariously though, he can see how much of a swing there is when shooting against TO targets but chooses to brush over them handily.
It also does not mention the situation where linked fat2 user is able to completely ignore range-bands (and cover) and still go for a 46% coin toss to remove an ARO piece. Fat2 significantly higher impact on higher armour profiles was not mentioned either. I guess the article has been written by Tariq/Sheskin apologist.
Okay... so... When compared to 5 other units where one is Sheskiin and the others: Weirdly selecting the Daofei HMG when Daofei Spitfire is much more popular and exactly the price point of Tarik None of which are as capable of moving as freely nor as fast as Tarik None of which are as capable of defending themselves in melee as Tarik 3 of which are Hackable and can be stopped or severely limited in movement using Repeaters 1 of which is a Fireteam with all the drawbacks which comes with moving around and avoiding templates that comes with it and is also the only 1-wound on the list The only one that consistently show anything near similar results is 10% more expensive Edit: that's a lot of HMG which necessitates that hand-waving of rangebands To me a natural conclusion should be that Tarik should be around the Hsien's price point of around 60 to 65 and 2 SWC. The increased mobility both in terms of raw stats, Super-Jump, better CC and non-Hackable versus the larger silhouette and lack of smoke-see-through. And Hsien in a Core shouldn't be a problem as long as it's not Celestial Guards. Or possibly/additionally that Hsien, Daofei and Orcs are a tiny bit too expensive (which kind of fits in with my narrative about Hackable characteristic, but hey!). P.s. the two closest Yu Jing comparisons are Mowang and Su-Jian, both of which match Tarik's price point very nicely, and both of which has a markedly worse performance and are nearly incapable of defending themselves in melee. (Even if you assume Su-Jian is able to use Travel and Combat forms simultaneously.)
Quite liked that article. Author themselves point out that it's just a quick analysis, but there were a few things in there that were counter to my own intuition until I thought about it a bit more (in particular the points at which Fatality does and doesn't offer diminishing returns). Thanks for posting @Hachiman Taro
FAT2 on a Missile Launcher or Sniper would be WAY more problematic than in high burst weapons. High burst weapons are already more likely to crit and win F2F rolls, which is why the math ultimately works out that it’s really not a huge deal. Double the chance to crit on a weapon with a lower chance to win F2F rolls and you’re making that weapon significantly more effective. Furthermore the EXP and DA ammo those fire makes the individual crit themselves way more punishing. I’d much rather see it on high burst than low burst weapons any day of the week.
44% of rolling one crit per Order, 10-15% in ARO (aprox, assuming Fat2 B1 = 10%, Fat2 B2 = about 15%) Vs always 10-15%... yeeeeah... By your reckoning the ideal troop to have Fat2 is either the Szalamander (with a 3 pts discount at least, since it has already fat1 this ITS too) or the HMC Yan Huo... After all, they would *just* gain less in global compared to what one would get individually xD
I don’t think you know what the word ‘basically’ means. It means broadly speaking, in which my summary is absolutely correct. Please do understand that when you respond like that, you come across the same way as a person that responds to the claim “the average height in Netherlands is 180cm” with “Aha! Wrong! I know someone from Netherlands and he’s like... 140cm!”. You’re not disputing anything. Furthermore, your cherry picking is at odds with the linked articles conclusion: So yes. This article is about someone unironcally claiming that Fat2 is about ‘feelz over reelz’ and really, according to his data, it’s basically an altered version of a visual mod. This is taken straight out of the horse’s mouth so please stop with the boring attempts to somehow prove that I’m misquoting him or taking him out of context. Also, can we please kill this false narrative of “it just feelz bad, yo!” Data, math and performance does not support this claim so let it die under a tractor, where it belongs.
I wouldn't say he "brushes over them" at all. What he says is that, while the increase is larger when shooting at poor odds (diminishing returns, after all), you are still at poor odds and it's not a particularly good idea to try your luck. You are still nearly as likely to lose a wound as to dish one out. I certainly wouldn't bank on those odds. If you read the comments, he plans on supplementing the analysis against high ARM targets.
Sure but how many ppl will read it after correction? As for now, this article is very misleading. Ppl on WGC have already jumped to the conclusion that Fat2 is only as effective as any other modifier.
I've said it elsewhere, and i'll say it again here: to me: to my perception the issue is not in how much Fat2 increases a tropper's percentages to win ftf rolls, or even kill things. We've seen the mat:, it's roughly equivalent to a 3 BS swing. We've seen the comparisons: there are many situations in which a non Fat2 unit can statistically out perform Tarik or Sheskin in a Ftf roll. The problem is that Fat2 has no meaningful counter play You can't out range it. There is no gear or skill that cancels it. It performs equally well in Active and Reactive turns. Forcing a -12 BS mod doesn't stop it (I will concede that is not true with Tarik/Khawarij as if you can somehow get them to -12 they'll be looking for 1s so Fat won't have the option to trigger). There is no opportunity cost and you can't diminish it by killing other troops like with link bonuses. It doesn't take extra orders to set up or limit the options of the unit using it in anyway (like with triangulated or speculative fire). Literally the only thing you can do to counter it is put the model in a situation where it cannot use its BS to fight you. So shoot it in the back (unless it's in a 4 man link, which all of the Fat2 units can do) or stealth into CC. Infinity is a game of hard and soft counters and tactical maneuvering and a rule like Fat2 runs contrary to that concept.
I would. I imagine everyone in this thread would read it if someone posted saying the supplemental analysis was done. That said, I'll save everyone the trouble, because I did it. In all cases, I used Sheskiin's stats with the Red Fury, but changed what modifiers were present to see how large the effects were. The first is against a Jotum in cover firing back with the MULTI HMG with anti-material... basically, the only way you wound is to crit. Obviously, FAT2 will have an outsized role here, but here are the numbers (presented as chance to deal 1+ wounds / chance to take 1+ wounds): Sheskiin with no Fireteam or FAT - 17.62% / 16.71% Sheskiin with FAT2 - 38.11% / 12.86% Sheskiin with 3+ FT, no FAT - 21.49% / 13.60% Sheskiin with 3+ FT + FAT2 - 44.93% / 9.93% Sheskiin with 5+ FT, no FAT - 21.49% / 7.23% Sheskiin with 5+ FT + FAT2 - 47.03% / 5.20% Sheskiin with 5+ FT + MML2 - 38.9% / 3.87% As expected, FAT2 plays an outsized role against high armor targets due to crits being the only way to land a wound. I included MML2 because that was the only other skill I could think of that would help in this situation. Obviously, the chance to wound does not increase as much as with FAT2, but what surprised me was the marked jump in surviveability, cutting the chance to take a wound nearly in half (albeit from an already very low sub10%). I then decided to see what it would do against a high armor target that also imposed negative MODs, so I put her against the Avatar: Sheskiin with nothing - 20.46% / 38.85% Sheskiin with FAT2 - 37.03% / 30.97% Sheskiin with 3+ FT, no FAT - 24.83% / 35.01% Sheskiin with 3+ FT + FAT2 - 43.73% / 26.42% Sheskiin with 5+ FT, no FAT - 26.83% / 24.43% Sheskiin with 5+ FT + FAT2 - 46.75% / 18.22% Sheskiin with 5+ FT + MSV2 - 31.83% / 7.23% Again, FAT2 is amazing in this situation, though I certainly wouldn't want to try it without at least a fireteam of 3+ on top. Also again, the other skill that could help in this situation (MSV2 in this case) doesn't do as much to inflict wounds, but increases the chance of surviving the FtF by far more than doubling crit chances. Finally, I wanted to go back to the Jotum and see what "bringing the right tool for the job" would give: Line Kazak with AP HMG in 5+ FT - 56.52% / 17.22% Vet Kazak with AP HMG in 5+ FT - 70.82% / 5.87% Sheskiin with AP HMG in 5+ FT with FAT2 (lol) - 69.65% / 7.23% Clearly, it is more efficient to bring something whose sole purpose is to deal with that sort of thing (indeed, the cost of the line kazak is less than half that of the Sheskiin), but on the whole, FAT2 provides a boost that is far and away above the cost curve, especially when it looks like the "cost" for FAT2 is "free". It's clear from the analysis posted above that it should cost similar to other skills at a minimum. I disagree with the assessment that FAT2 "performs equally well in Active and Reactive turns." Burst plays a large role in why FAT2 is so effective. Take a Superjumping, mimetism HMG for example: Rodok with 5+ FT vs. Sheskiin (no FAT) - 77.76% / 8.26% Rodok with 5+ FT vs. Sheskiin w/ FAT2 - 69.56% / 15.46% She's not winning in the reactive turn if you are able to take any advantage or range or visibility MODs (or both!). The counter play is to attack her in your active turn. Even with 2 wounds and a nanoscreen, she's not particularly hard to damage when you have the burst advantage. Extra points if you can coordinate an order to throw a flame template down while also shooting her with a normal BS weapon (does she shoot and lose her nanoscreen and potentially her life, or does she dodge and potentially take both hits with no help from FAT2?). Now, all that said, the one thing I will admit about Sheskiin is that she is totally easy-mode. 2W means immune to shock. Nanoscreen means you don't care about positioning. High CC + Protheion means she is not easy prey for CC assassination attempts (and can get even stronger). And FAT2 means you are an all-round effective weapons platform in nearly any situation. There will always be better tools for the job, but she is an all-in-one combat package, able to lay down the hurt in most situations. I look forward to playing her once and then scrubbing myself clean for an hour in the shower afterwards.
I played Sheskiin for the first time this week. She killed lots of things that would have otherwise been threatening, but only critted once. But like you say, she has a lot of things that all make her a very easy model to use. Even without Fatality L2, she would be a very deadly model that's easy to kill stuff with.
@Sabin76 the point I was getting at is that the bonus from Fat2 can be applied in both the active and reactive turns. It has the same effect per die you roll. Having more dice means you get more out if it for sure, but that’s true for everything in the game. I apologize for my lack of clarity.
