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Symbiomupdate

Discussion in 'Tohaa' started by colbrook, Mar 21, 2019.

  1. Ben Kenobi

    Ben Kenobi Well-Known Member

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    Yes that's right. But it doesn't help the SymbioBomb if you make a popular choice even more unpopular or better, don't increase it's usage by adding new possibilities to use them.

    I unterstand the thought behind it, but I see the dilemma on the other hand.
     
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  2. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
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    The only existing thing that's been changed is using them on Kotails, and that's a non-issue because you can use the model as the Holoecho that represents the trooper. That doesn't even reveal anything new because the SymbioMon had to be placed on the real trooper anyway.

    Being able to have SymbioMon on a trooper that can start over the halfway line, or even in the enemy DZ is, by definition, adding new possibilities.
     
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  3. jmmelo

    jmmelo Well-Known Member

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  4. jmmelo

    jmmelo Well-Known Member

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    I am going to go with Ben here... Different wording on 2 different options wouldn't be a huge problem, and might make a very unpopular option usable. Plus, the ruling ended up being that we cannot use the symbios on the new possibility (the impersonator). The Kotail was already a non-issue, anyway. FAQ`ed ages ago, and barely saw table as it was.

    As I see it now, mates continue being the only valid option for the Kaeltars, since we didn't even get a CoC option for the one with the bombs. Might as well have gone Kaskuda on it :P

    Sorry, rant mode off...
     
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  5. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
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    It's still got nothing to do with 'nerfing' SymbioBombs, they haven't lost anything, in any way, compared to previously.

    The ruling is that you can't start in IMP-2 state and have SymbioMon. You can still have a Symbiont Armor trooper with a mate and a bomb that's starting just outside the enemy DZ without a roll, or inside it with a roll.
     
  6. Ben Kenobi

    Ben Kenobi Well-Known Member

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    but you pay the bloat on points for not using imp2.
    If you compare the statline with the Sakiel it doesn't justify the cost even with the frency discount of the Sakiel.
     
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  7. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
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    I strongly disagree. 12pt minus the 4-5 points of discount on the Sakiel is cheap for a skill that's better than infiltration in every way (plus BTS6).

    As it is, you still have good odds of being able to start outside the DZ, do a Move-Move and then Move-Eraser or Move-Endgame on a target within ZoC, no LoF required. That lets you reach targets anywhere in the enemy DZ in a way that other Impersonators struggle to do without risking a WIP Roll.

    Now imagine what it would be like if you could add at least one completely safe Move-Move on top of that due to IMP-2 state. If you think opponents' complaints about the previous version of SymbioMates were bad, it would be nothing compared to the complaints you'd get with that combo. :-(
     
  8. Ben Kenobi

    Ben Kenobi Well-Known Member

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    Move-Move isn't a valid option, cause either you have to deploy first your Kiiutan and therefore your opponent can deploy his forces against him cause he has no marker state or you have to go second and he has the opportunity to kill him.
     
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  9. OrderMonkey

    OrderMonkey Well-Known Member

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    Has anyone ever considered holding back a Kaeltar? Just pretend you impersonater won't have access to a mate or bomb.
     
  10. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
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    Marker state would make no difference to that.
     
  11. Ben Kenobi

    Ben Kenobi Well-Known Member

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    If you go first, you have one move-move free where he can only discover you, therefore you can perhaps reach a valuable target.You have then a 20 Inch radius for your symbiobomb, where else you have only 12 Inch.
    Think that would be a difference.
     
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  12. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
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    Sorry, I think we got our wires crossed.

    If the enemy troopers can deploy to block the path of a revealed Kiiutan, they can also deploy to block the path of a Kiiutan in IMP-2 state.
     
  13. Wyrmnax

    Wyrmnax Well-Known Member

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    Only problem with that is that your Impersonator will already be on the table AND out of IMP state. If you do that then I am 100% certain that he will have a mate/bomb.

    Also - even withouth a mate, a 2w unit that starts in your face for under 30 pts is ridiculously strong. Add in the fact that he can reach and isolate targets withouth LoS, and it is even more powerful.
     
  14. jmmelo

    jmmelo Well-Known Member

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    I agree the profile is very nice. No argument there. I do think other impersonators are move flexible.

    What I am saying is that this was an opportunity to make the symbiobomb kaeltar an interesting option in some instances, and it was wasted. It would make the IMP+Bomb combo cost around 40pts, they could have added a SWC tax to it to help balance, who knows? I understand the change was to make bombs and mates have the same wording, but there is nothing saying they HAD to. As it is now, mates are still the better option of the 2, since I get CoC and 2 good saves+TI for a decent price. And the other profiles will continue to NOT be used.
     
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  15. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
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    Years of player complaints about similiar-but-not-identically-worded rules say otherwise...

    Especially as SymbioMon are intended to be identical for deployment.
     
  16. WiT?

    WiT? Well-Known Member

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    A symbiobomb on our impersonator is literally merging two of the most annoying units in the game together. Go first, always land, always get your action and then always get to attack something with a superjammer? Nah, Infinity doesn't need that.

    On a more positive note, I've started using bombs instead of the second mate, and after actually reading their rules in depth for the first time and seeing a B2 -3 penalty DT ammo jammer... yeah they're stupid good. Given there's usually a babysitter Makaul in my lists that doesn't do much, the bombs are effectively a 2 point upgrade to get them. The other, non jammer abilities still seem slightly average though. Maybe mirrorball against the neverending Kamau overwatch pieces?
     
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  17. RobertShepherd

    RobertShepherd Antipodean midwit

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    I've gotten one kill already by using the pheroware that does wounds in ARO, and would also encourage people to try out the Stun pheroware. If you catch someone alone, stun is a death sentence.
     
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  18. nehemiah

    nehemiah Well-Known Member

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    That stun one is amazing in the active turn as long as you have a few orders to spend. It is burst 3, Damage 14 with Breaker ammo, and a -3 to the opponent's face to face. Then you can round the corner and shoot at them without them being able to do anything other than dodge, (or engage) at a -3.
    The Stun is also the most effective way to ignore a unit for a turn. I once used it on the last turn to stun an enemy unit that was guarding my path to an objective with a shotgun. Once it was stunned I just walked past it and got the objective.
     
  19. WiT?

    WiT? Well-Known Member

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    I've been thinking about that stun one all day, and it seems incredibly powerful. The idea of something like a Draal Minelayer with Symbiobombs bringing such an incredible CQB toolkit to the midfield, or adding them to a Neema or similar assault Triad is incredible. When I first saw bombs I focused on the utility stuff, but with one roll and a 35% failure rate, that stuff is pants compared to these attack options.

    Starting to wonder if running the symbio impersonator markerless to take bombs is actually viable. That dude himself isn't great, but he is a delivery system for bombs and even a combi can kill stunned troops easily
     
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  20. Wyrmnax

    Wyrmnax Well-Known Member

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    I am always baffled when people say that a guy with 2w and access to AP / Shock / EM that starts pretty much on the enemy deployment zone for 26 points isn't good.
     
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