Well, to be fair an active HI Lt isn't a terrible concept. 'though he doesn't have a Marker State, he's otherwise a strong piece. I'd say there is a case for him as an active Lt now that there's a decent CoC option. It's really competition from the other options which kills him in that role, not that it's not a viable choice in a vacuum.
Getting lieutenant, specialist, and a SWC weapon in the same trooper is a very rare holy trinity in Infinity.
Hell, he's even a viable Data Tracker option. Which gives him access to a bonus order in some missions.
And PanO get two of them, Gabe and Santiago. (Vassily and Kusanagi being the only other two I can think of)
I like the idea of active HI Lieutenants. I’m also tempted to agree that in a vacuum he’s not a bad piece... but contemplating it further the vacuum would have to ignore not only his much stronger HI lieutenant competition, but also pricing itself. He’s incredibly pricy. Which isn’t his fault, AHDs are going to come at a cost. It’s nice that he has some defense against Killer Hackers and that he can hack tags, HI, and Remotes. But 56 points AND 2 SWC? For a goggle-less, Camo-less bs 14 troop? KoS can do everything Gabe can do except hack non-hacker targets. KoS also brings multiple template tools, linkability, and 360 Visor, which is great for a heavy weapon platform operating midfield. He even has a better CC weapon, though he’s not as skilled at wielding it. He does this for 13 points less and half the SWC of our bald-headed friend. It’s pretty close to a no brainer for me.
Ok, so I'm going to ignore the Hospitaller and Teuton Lt options here, because I just don't think anyone is taking them seriously ('though I think we SHOULD have a chat about that Teuton NCO option in a bit). That being the case, here are our serious HI Lt options: AQUILA Lieutenant MULTI Rifle / Pistol, Shock CCW. (0 | 58) The Aquila is a strong offensive midfield clearance unit, which is actually pretty strong against opponents who are throwing a lot of Camo up to the midline (and/or beyond). It's paying a LOT for that MSV3 and BS15, and it's fair to question the actual value you get for those points. But it still offers a fair bit as an offensive Lt, including a good Data Tracker platform. DE FERSEN Lieutenant Spitfire / Pistol, Templar CCW (AP + Shock). (2 | 56) De Fersen is the only Hacker here, and his broad range of hacking capability has been noted elsewhere. He's also the only Specialist we are considering. A strong Data Tracker option with a good midrange weapon and solid shooting and CC, De Fersen is a real "jack of all trades" kind of unit. JOAN OF ARC Lieutenant MULTI Rifle, Nanopulser / Pistol, DA CCW. (+1 | 50) Joan V1 is a bit of an odd beast at times. Her weapons package just isn't suited to her offensive potential ('though at least she has a decent CCW). There are a lot of other reasons to put her on the table, and she DOES give another use for the Lt order, but she's not a specialist and isn't all that suited, ultimately, to offensive operation. JOAN OF ARC Lieutenant Spitfire, Nanopulser / Pistol, AP CCW. (1 | 51) Joan V2 drops armour in return for firepower and mobility, making her a far better attack piece. I CRY for the lack of a decent CCW on the Lt option. Probably the better choice for an "active" Lt, either of her profiles likely want that Bolt CoC backing them up 'though. ORC Lieutenant HMG / Pistol, Knife. (2 | 44) The old faithful, who has seriously considered running one of these as a list point man? With decent CoC backing them up it suddenly feels a LOT more viable! Discount package bringing solid firepower, this guy might actually we worth looking to now that we have the Bolt option. We could expand the discussion out to non-Lt options, but I don't know that's actually useful when considering what the Bolt CoC is bringing to Vanilla.
I think this is a very good starting point for vanilla right now: PanOceania──────────────────────────────────────────────────2 3 JOAN OF ARC Lieutenant Spitfire, Nanopulser / Pistol, AP CCW. (1 | 51) HELOT MILITIAMAN Submachine Gun, Light Rocket Launcher / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 9) TECH-BEE (Remote Assistant Level 1, Specialist Operative) Flash Pulse / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5) WARCOR (360º Visor) Flash Pulse / Stun Pistol, Knife. (0 | 3) BOLT (Chain of Command) Combi Rifle + Light Shotgun, Drop Bears / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 27) 1.5 SWC | 95 PointsOpen in Infinity Army
I think too that De Fersen is a lt choice we can really try now. I know a French player who was playing him in a Vanilla list for the Interplanetario last year and finished in the 30 top players. I asked what he was thinking about him and he answered me that he was great. I assume that he always was good. Just that some of us maybe overrate a bit too much how easy it is to deal with him.
Really not sure about DeFe, against nonhackable stuff like Tohaa/Ariadna he is just a very pricey Specalist without Frenzy to offset cost. Against everything with a Marker State KHD he is a vulnerable target and those are the guys you could try to hack yourself. The final nail in his coffin is the lack of an antimaterial CCW to be useful in CC or for missions. In Vanilla I'd probably forfeit the Lt and Specialist role and always take Joan V2 EXP CCW to get a mini Achilles instead. A Seraph or Tik nicely circumvent the need for Hacking on top of that. Echo Bravo Red Fury, Zulu Cobra KHD and Helots are pretty much all the new staples for Vanilla. The Bolt CoC is really nice, but only a Joan Lt or Jotum Lt are enough of a reason to bring him. We really have a lack of interesting TAG Lt Profiles, didn't really notice until we actually had the CoC to go along with it.
That one is just plain counterintuitive considering how TO works. And you'll probably be much happier to run a Cutter in Varuna behind a wall of Helots, Kamau Link and great support troops. Also not sure if you really have the 27 points left for the CoC dude with a Cutter, pretty sure I'd always take the Fusilier Lt + 2 dummies for the Orders here. 115 is kinda the threshold where your list gets into trouble when you spend any extra points on things that don't provide Orders or damage.
I don't think any KHD in marker state will reveal itself during the active turn of De Fersen. He is stll WIP 14 and with B3 of Trinity, I would rather bet on De Fersen winning the FtF rather than on a random Zero. The danger is to moving in Repeaters when multiple hackers are waiting and during reactive turn, of course. Nothing new here. He was already in danger before HSN3 against Proxy Mk2 AHD and Tuaregs. Didn't prevent some to play him effectively. And don't forget that Spotlight is available on AHD so he can make a hell lot of classified on his own. Even the Santiago KHD can't compete here. And I think jack of all trades should be loved in PanO instead of constantly hated. We pay a lot of points for someone able to still have a use no matter what. A lot of our troops can't say the same (including Kamau and the mighty Swiss Guard). The lack of antimaterial CCW is a more relevent argument. It's his weakness, he can't be threatening against HIs and TAGs that much along to being enable to destroy antennas if there is no panoply. But for scenarios like HC, Comm Center, he is a master piece of efficiency.
ORC HMG Lt is a good friend in 200pts lists, but I'm not sure if she's up to the job above that. But TBH I don't really see that much value in CoC Bolt, it's still 27pts for a guy whose job is what, keeping his head down until the lt. bites it? I think I prefer the more expensive Sepulchre option, since it's a hard hitting 4-4 MOV specialist with Holo2 and may cause a bit of a "head against a wall" moment for anyone who just spent two turns and 15 Orders killing Joan or other heavy Lt. Even with all his Bioimmunity Bolt's weakness is still Normal ammo. I see it more as an option for NCA and Foreign Company than something I'd ever use in vanilla. I never use a TAG Lt though, Sepulchre looks way to pricey for that kind of list, so maybe that's Bolt's niche.
Guess what. They don't. They wait for their active to have "fun" with Fersen. It's even nasteir if they do have nearby repeater (remember Fersen has no KHD). Actually Firewall+Redrum puts Fersen on 8s so someone could try to hack him using avarage WIP13 guy (to good effect).
That's exactly what I said? And this problem is as old as before HSN3 except that you were IMM-1 instead of being straight wounded. Now, you have EVO programms to make it harder to your opponent and you still can protect him like you would already do with Joan. KHD don't magically appear next to De Fersen like a ninja in an anime. They have to move toward him or try to land pitchers. All this through your ARO net. If you treat De Fersen as a throwable piece, yes, he will die. If you take care of him, I'm not that sure he will bite the dust that much. And if he does, you still avec a CoC Bolt who is a decent fighter.
If you loose Joan you are also loosing 3 regular orders, warcore, TechBee and Helot. 66 points for what she brings is cost efficient, 93 points including the CoC is not anymore, she is tanky and stays at home for the first turns, thats her CoC. Also, she has Frenezy, so if you use her actively before the last or one before last turn she will stop having the ability to enter partial cober. If you want to run Joan 2 give it a try, but it will be one time as a joke.
