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RAI question about moving through friendly models

Discussion in '[Archived]: N3 Rules' started by Jonno, Apr 3, 2019.

  1. Jonno

    Jonno Well-Known Member

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    General Movement Rules state: By the way, allied troopers, and only allied, whose Silhouette Attribute be equal or inferior to the trooper's Silhouette Attribute does not block his Movement.

    The Silhouette Attribute is not the height, but the number, eg S0, S1, S2.

    This means, RAW, that S2 troopers cannot walk through S3 remotes, even those those remotes are shorter than the S2 troopers. My meta has always played this the other way around, in that taller units can move through shorter ones, but now I see the rules contradict this.

    Have I missed a rule or something that clarifies this or have I just been playing it wrong? I don't really see how it makes realistic sense, (not that it has to).
     
  2. Ben Kenobi

    Ben Kenobi Well-Known Member

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    No, that's exactly as intended.
    At first it's a little bit confusing but it works fine.
     
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  3. Zewrath

    Zewrath Elitist Jerk

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    It's not THAT illogical when you think about it. Vaulting over something lower than you makes sense in regards to something like a fence or something similar, where you can just place on hand on the fence and quickly vault over. When it comes to something like S3 & S5, then think of it like a bathtub. The bathtub might be much lower than you but it's still akward AF to move around and you can't simply vault over such a bathtub, the same way you can do with a narrow wall or fence.
     
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  4. Jonno

    Jonno Well-Known Member

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    I see what you're saying Zewrath, but the problem I feel is that it is inconsistent for both height and width:
    Shortest S1 cannot move through anyone, even though it is as fat as S2. (Height important, width not important)
    S2 can only move through shorter, just-as-fat S1. (Height important, width not important)
    Shorter, fatter S3 can move through taller, thinner S2 AND shorter, thinner S1. (Height not important, being fatter important)
    Shorter, fatter S4 can move through taller, thinner S2, but not taller, thinner S5 and S6. It also cannot move through taller, just-as-fat S7, or taller, fatter S8. (Height and width not important)

    Personally it just feels like a small oversight as the Silhouette Attributes appear to be arbitrary numbers. My play group has until now been using:
    "Troopers can move through friendly models and markers of same or lower height."

    If you want it that REMs and motorbikes can pass through S2 then maybe this would be better:
    "Troopers can move through friendly models and markers of same or lower height, and models and markers of same or smaller width."

    That would make everyone be able to pass through Silhouettes of a lower attribute than them, and would allow S2 to pass S3 and S4, as well as S3 to pass through S4, S5, and S6. S5 could also then pass S6.


    I appreciate the bathtub analogy, but I don´t really see how a guy on a motorbike has an easier time of passing a REM than a guy off a motorbike, not to mention a TAG.
     
  5. Daniel Darko

    Daniel Darko Well-Known Member
    Warcor

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    I guess the "weaker" one makes way for the TAG... therefore the TAG can move in a straight line.
     
  6. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    Shouldn't you be able to vault over S3 with your S2 ?
     
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  7. Robock

    Robock Well-Known Member

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    on one hand. model are not obstacle (i didn't find supporting reference to that opinion of mine).

    on the other hand. troopers who's silhouette attribute is smaller does not block movement. So troopers who's sil attribute is bigger do block movement. If something block movement, it is an obstacle. Therefore you can vault it. Of course, you cannot vault enemy no matter their Sil because base contact will engage them. Now if we look at Drop Bear, "The operator of this weapon can throw it, even over an obstacle". In this context, you can spec fire over an obstacle. Such as behind a taller friendly model who's an obstacle. So I can see more support for the stance that model that block movement are obstacle, just as barrel and walls also are obstacle.
     
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  8. solkan

    solkan Well-Known Member

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    Vaulting over your own troops leads to two problems:
    • The trooper is now moving unsupported by terrain.
    • What happens when someone wants to stop on top of a trooper?
     
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  9. FatherKnowsBest

    FatherKnowsBest Red Knight of Curmudgeon

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    A sexy party/
     
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  10. Sabin76

    Sabin76 Well-Known Member

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    I assume it would be the same as if you were vaulting over a thin fence: "you don't"
     
  11. Robock

    Robock Well-Known Member

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    same as a fence, no big deal. vault an orange fence, vault a friend. and don't stop mid-vault.

    it reminds me of REM trying to vault anything. the base is never wholly supported. the fence is to thin. the barrel is to small, the car is wide enough but the windshield is not flat with the car top, which itself is only as big as a crate. it never was a problem personally. The alternative is to play in a minecraft table where every scenery obstacle vault-able by a S2 soldier is a nice 1" block. If you vault (a wall or a line of barrel) and cannot complete it, then you backtrack your movement's end position so that you don't stop unsupported.
     
    #11 Robock, Apr 3, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2019
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  12. MindwormGames

    MindwormGames Well-Known Member

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    Didn’t IJW say at some point in a discussion like this that a S2 model could still vault over a S3 model, because it was considered an obstacle?
     
  13. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    No. Quite the opposite. And the rules say nothing of the sort.
     
  14. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    It's funny how the General Movement Rules has two places which specify movement over scenery; one which relates to the unspecified process of "vaulting" over and obstacle and the other which states that low scenery doesn't block movement.

    They implicitly, but not explicitly, contradicts each other. On one hand vaulting isn't defined how you do it at all, but it does say you move up and down while vaulting "for free" while the other rule tidbit implies that such an action wouldn't be inhibited at all and it's possible to argue that moving vertically, even if for free, is (or at least could) block movement. On the other hand, vaulting uses the very generalised "obstacle" while the blue box is more specific and mentions "scenery"
     
  15. MindwormGames

    MindwormGames Well-Known Member

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    Are you sure? I distinctly recall being baffled by his interpretation, and asking for clarification twice. Do you know where that thread is?
     
  16. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    No. I think it doesn't exist.
     
  17. DukeofEarl

    DukeofEarl Well-Known Member

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    I read those two things as being complementary, not contradictory. Low Scenery does not block movement, but you must take into account the vertical positioning wile moving across it. That fills the "no cost" clause of vaulting quite simply while not blocking movement
     
  18. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Like I wrote, implicitly contradicts each other because of how the specific restrictions due to the way it is worded in one line are lifted by using a more general term in the other line. It's like
    "Mom, can I vault over my brother in the crib?"
    "Honey, you can only vault over objects that's sturdy and shorter than you, your brother's not an object"
    "Dad, mom said I can vault over stuff that's shorter than myself. Something's in the way that's shorter than myself, can I vault over it?"
    "Well, okay, son, but only if they're an obstacle to you"
    *Kid puts the crib in a doorway and starts practising jumping over it with the blessing of his parents*
     
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  19. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    Baby died to Noctifier Missile that hit his elder brother mid vault. It was a sad but necessary lesson.
     
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  20. MindwormGames

    MindwormGames Well-Known Member

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    I'm reasonably certain that it does, but honesty not motivated enough to go looking.

    I mean, I've only made a couple hundred posts... so it could be easy to find.
     
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