We see Sukeul + Mates, but generally I don't find I'm losing to them. I'm 100% biased here, because I play PanO, but that configuration just turns into a shooting gallery where I generally take down 2.5 SWC and ~70 points of gunfighter in ~5 Orders. I'm much, much more afraid of the aggressive CQB use of Eclipse, Nimbus, direct templates. @RobertShepherd went undefeated at CanCon with it, and @nehemiah has been using kerail effectively for years, so this is the setup that's top-of-mind for me. The biggest issue I've had with Mates (and I know you can relate) is that a Mate-equipped unit can go anywhere it wants, contesting any zone, objective room, console, etc with no counter in terms of game mechanics. That option is (mostly) gone now. But the Tohaa players who are merely seeing the nerf, and not the shift in focus, are losing out on something big. Mates might be getting de-emphasized, but Bombs have never been bad. Symbiobombs (and pheroware in general) can have very powerful impact... Even without factoring Spiral troops into the mix, Neema can come up on you, then choose between shooting, walking into CC, direct template hit, or inflicting a broad spectrum of Bomb abilities on you. That's nasty. It's the g:synch lose-lose dilemma cranked up x1000. It can be heavily influenced by stratuscloud, nimbus, etc too. I think that's a functional metaphor for how Tohaa can dominate the active turn; a Triad carries a big back of tricks, ensuring mechanic superiority (not conventional F2F superiority) for dominating an exchange. With that in mindI think the perceived nerf of Mates is actually going to encourage Tohaa players to break out of the comfort box of "let me sit here with a Sukeul missile and hope the Mate lets me win a bad f2f roll", and instead play the aggressive attack game that the Sectorial was originally designed for (it's the entire design ethos behind the faction getting Symbiont, Eclipse, multiple 3-man links, essentially wildcard on every unit, the Makaul toolbox, etc.) I think the new Spiral troops crank this up even more, with some decent Vanilla contributions that enhance their midfield, area denial, and harassment/aggression game. On the whole, I think CB had a design vision for Tohaa (close quarter combat with extremely flexible tools) ... Realized it was too restrictive (this was also an era where Fire actually meant something to Symbiont wearers) ... Tossed in some rule additions and new units to help offset the high skill curve of the original vision (Mates for CQB durability, Sukeul for some ranged presence, Kaeltar to encourage aggressive play), realized they had diluted the CQB design ethos too far because of the ranged presence of Sukeul, thereby ruining the internal balance of the faction, and now they're shifting everything back in the direction of that original vision. Tohaa players who are owning the midfield and playing aggressively with Triads are likely to be well supported with these new tools. Players who sit back hoping to win an ARO fight, not so much.
It can also have Symbiomates or a Symbiobomb. That shit is crazy on an Infiltrator. Isolating your Lt from behind a wall top of 1 would be bad. Real bad. It's different from the Impersonators that exist currently, but far more durable.
Armand looses ODD, its greatest advantage. Neema and the standard Ectros loose BS, PH, Kinematica and their "high" ARM/PB (high for Tohaa, I mean). Kiel-Saan and Gorgos not only loose their high BS, PH, ARM and PB, they even change size! And loosing Nanoscreen is a big deal for the Rasail, as it is what lets you move freely around at ARM4. The fixed lists looks like this: Units that change dramatically without their symbiont. Kotail Sukeul Rasail Draal Armand Ectros Neema Kiel-Saan Gorgos Units that don't change dramatically without their symbiont. Kerail Kosuil Nikoul Sakiel Gao-Rael Gao-Tarsos Taqeul Kiuutan By the way, @East of Irem: "high PH Faction"? Tohaa? Our only troopers with high PH were the Symbiobeasts, the Gorgos (as any TAG), the Ectros/Neema (as any HI) and the Makaul (as mostClose Combat Warbands). The Chaksa are indeed better at Dodging than the Standard REM, but are completly different than their REM "counterparts", so its not a good idea to compare them.
I'm struck a little by this statement not because I disagree with it but because how much it puts in perspective the extent to which I'd already transitioned to using other tools for exactly this purpose. Symbiobeasts and Preceptors are probably some of the best models in the game this side of a Gaki for efficiently forcing perimeter defences relying on deployable weapons, and a QCB makaul-centric kill team will crack almost any objective room or similarly entrenched position given enough orders (provided you don't do what I did with them last game, which is assume that a Crane Rank Agent is about as good in melee as a Hsien Warrior. Whoops). So the solutions really are there. It really won't take much in the way of quality from Greif Operators, Longarms etc to put Tohaa in a really interesting place despite the mate change. I'm looking forward to it.
I've really struggled to make use of it so far, but I attribute that to how unique it is compared to literally everything else in the game right now. I don't have any meaningful muscle memory to fall back on.
Totally fair for some reason in my head he didn't lose it. So partly I definitely poorly worded my response. The Ectros + the Kiel-Saan change but not in a game changing way. They lose out on some stats they might get worse at their job but they don't change. If we're just talking stat changes essentially all the units would apply. In a similar way the Gorgos is an operator TAG. It gets a whole extra point of essentially STR which to me is the symbiont. The Gorgos definitely wanted a mate to make it even more survivable but the change in stats is more comparable to a TAG than a traditional unit with wounds. This is probably the rockiest of them on my part. Nanoscreen is good but I find myself moving in cover more often then not out of habit so it feels like less of a major loss to me. Its not like ARM 4 in Nano was particularly impressive but I can see why people would put it in the other category. I could have sworn they lose the stratuscloud. If they don't then I would probably more them to the other group.
Nope, you're right. The profile is in the Designing Spiral Corps video and they lose stratuscloud in inactive profile. Interestingly the Design video also calls it 'stratocloud', whereas the blog post with the rule info calls it 'stratuscloud'.
Ok, minor update: I was peering at the unboxing video posted over in the shasvastii thread which has the spiral corps box and booklet, and in the booklet it looks like the Draal profile retains stratuscloud in inactive. But it's incredibly blurry, I'm mostly just counting rules and assuming they don't lose specialist operative with the profile shift. Might wait for the Army Update on that one.
Don't worry soon you'll be a bitter vet with 10 years under your belt and every release will be worst than the last. Or so I'm told ;)
I can wait. I am calm, cool, and collected. *dips pinky in tea to check temperature; tea explodes.* Huh, that's weird.
I recommend leaving your comfort zone from time to time, then. The Triad of Gao-Rael Sniper, Sukeul ML and Kaeltar filler for defensive purpose is, of course, very threatening, but also pretty exploitable. This being your default setup also greatly reduces your flexibility when it comes to list building. 144 Points and 5 SWC is a lot as a base for a list. That's half your army before having added specialists, a second attack piece or mission specific units. I think this also explains your negative thoughts on the upcomming changes. It seems you are very reliant on the Symbiomates for your style of play. Maybe you tunnel vision a little too hard, though. There are plenty of other ways to play Tohaa. Give 'em a shot. ;)
When I was learning Tohaa, I was intimidated by the extra layer of rules the Symbiomates and bombs brought to the table, so I thankfully slid that in last during my learning games, making how I play them not so strongly reliant on the usual mate-and-forget. What @barakiel said about how the other Tohaa toolsets operate resonates very strongly with how I play, although I admit I have long loved my one defensive ARO triad supporting the two triads I have rushing midfield. I'm glad to hear speculations are that Spiral will play in that same pattern, because I'm planning on taking these Brawlers out to town with me there and admittedly don't want to change the sneaky fun playstyle I've enjoyed tooooooo too much. (But will if I need to, but I like sneaky toolsets.)
My main problem is the coc on the mate kaeltar I am mostly using Sukeul K1 or Rasail as a Lt thanks to being able to fall back on that CoC. I would love it if they add a bomb profile with CoC. But altogether I really enjoy playing more with eclipse and rushing in than long range fire fights, its why I started with Tohaa
Yeah, if the CoC Kaeltar gets a bomb profile in the impending update, I'll be pretty pleased at the option. Realise also that I never got to Sukeuls because they were sold out locally -- this explains why I always have so much SWC left over.
So no kaeltar updates :( ill prolly still be using the CoC version in swarm lists, in only because i use the k1 sukeul very aggressively. Also of note in this nerf is that you cant use the mate for hacking attempts/ comms attacks. Which in a way just pushes people to play the sukeul more, as veteran lets it get past jammers
Kiel-Sann, Neema and Makaul can all pretty freely wander past jammers too. Edit: Actually Draal and the two new impersonators too I think :D
