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Symbiomupdate

Discussion in 'Tohaa' started by colbrook, Mar 21, 2019.

  1. Verso

    Verso Active Member

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    I don't mean to come across as rude because that's not my intention but I need some facts to dissuade my line of thinking. The Symbio nerf is more far-reaching than it seems both for on the table play and army composition. For example I have no desire to run a Rasail anymore, the scale has been tipped against them. Models like the Draal, a new model, go SHARPLY downhill when they're Symbiont Inactive which is much closer now than it was. Templates are even more of a Faction weakness and they were already a big one, the list goes on.

    I don't think the army in invalid but my guess is Tohaa will not be anywhere near the top as a competitive aggregate. I doubt Spiral Corps will be either but that's another topic. In short I strongly believe CB don't understand the Faction, how it plays, or how it was designed. This was a very bad nerf, a more sweeping change was needed if they want to mitigate SymbioMates or they should have left them alone and made changes elsewhere. Combine this with the SKUs being retired and Tohaa being a niche army and I don't think it bodes well but time will tell.
     
  2. Postmortem

    Postmortem Kazak Arachnophile

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    Not looking to argue whether or not the sky is falling for Tohaa, but this statement is silly.
     
  3. Verso

    Verso Active Member

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    It certainly could be but that's how it feels based on available evidence. More transparency would be a good thing, very few wargames have any transparency when it comes to why changes were made, nerfs or buffs. Obviously it's an intentional nerf, I just don't think they realize how deep it may run.
     
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  4. East of Irem

    East of Irem Well-Known Member

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    Sure, have a few points based on the concerns you have so far expressed, some reasons to be hopeful:

    As a high PH faction tohaa have one of the most resilient backfields to template play despite the huge numbers of S2/S1 models that can be found in a tohaa DZ. Your difficulty is usually in finding suitable paces to put them all (play another faction and your backfield is filled with PH7/4 REMs on inconveniently large silhouettes praise the triumvirate).
    The rasail is a very points efficient buy for a single attack piece, with a 'would you care to dodge or shoot lol lose anyway' mechanic on top of cover in the open, 4 wounds, comes in under 40 poiints is good without any support at all and a monster with the support arriving from spiral.
    +1 wound is always better than NWI because 3 wounds is better than 2 regardless of armour, in part because of the costs associated with armour, in part because wounds are just good to have contextually in game, tohaa symbiont armour equipped troopers gain a wound for minimal cost. All tohaa primary damage dealing pieces have it, and your support pieces dont waste points on it.
    Draal is a midfield control and support unit that works even when it isnt exposed to fire, it appears highly playable from the previews.

    Spiral corps contains helots, 5 man link bonuses and most of the excellent tohaa support troops in sufficient AVA, spiral corps has TO infiltrators, threatens an AD trooper, an impersonator and has hidden marker state LT. Therefore spiral corps will be highly competitive.
     
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  5. Hiereth

    Hiereth AI Artichoke

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    "We have also revised the SymbioMate rule , modified in response to a need expressed by the community."
    This is what we got, and this doesn't scream, "we at Corvus Belli felt it was too strong."
    I have yet to play the rule, nor seen the final state of Tohaa after this update and will reserve judgements once I see the whole picture, but if it is entirely community outcry and not internal balance decision I can't say I'd be pleased with that.
     
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  6. Knauf

    Knauf Transhumanist

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    Why the rasail in particular?
     
  7. TheRedZealot

    TheRedZealot Well-Known Member
    Warcor

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    Alright buckle up lets give it a shot. Please note I am not specifically attacking you or anything you said I'm just trying to provide a counter point.

    Symbionts still provide shock immunity. They also continue to retain an unconcious state. Finally they are able to shed their skin in response to Immobilization and Isolation. For a poitns cost comparable with NWI.

    This seems partly right at least. Its clear that their initial idea for Tohaa didn't pan out then they made some tweaks and tried something a little new and that didn't quite work out and here we are today getting a third iteration.

    I think based on their changes going forward that they seem to have a reasonable understanding as to how Tohaa work and why they aren't all that popular. I've had a number of players mention that they hate the generic tohaa models but love Spiral Corps stuff for example. The new units also seem to generally fill in some of the weakness that Tohaa had before.

    Having misplayed Symbiont Armour this way when it was first released I can 100% confirm for you that you would like this because its silly and broken. It would not be good for the health of the game or the faction without a major pricing change.

    Alright lets make a couple of lists then.

    Units that change dramatically without their symbiont.
    • Kotail
    • Sukeul
    • Rasial (arguably)
    • Draal
    Units that don't change dramatically without their symbiont.
    • Kerail
    • Kosuil
    • Nikoul
    • Sakiel
    • Gao Rael
    • Gao Tarsos (probably should never use them anyway)
    • Armand
    • Taqeul
    • Ectros (and Neema)
    • Gorgos
    • Kiuutan
    • Kiel-Sann
    So we've got one unit that didn't really want mates because its Holo 2 anyway.

    A unit from Spiral which has what looks to be an awesome ability that should win it gun fights that potentially loses out.

    A unit that was generally considered too good.

    And the Rasial which the loss of Nanoscreen really isn't that huge a deal. Its still a 2.5 Wound + Synchbot unit with great weapons options.

    And everything else is just sad but not marred by the lack of Symbiont. And thats not counting all the units without Symbionts at all!


    I think this is part of the idea that very specifically caused the change. The Army was never supposed to be SymbioMate centric. For what half its existence (2013 to 2016?) it did not even have Mates in a form comparable to what they are today. I promise the army will do just fine without them look at all the great units that don't even care about mates:

    • Clipsos
    • Igao
    • Diplomatic Delegate
    • Gao Tarsos
    • Chaksa
    • Kaauri
    • Kumotail
    • Makaul
     
  8. barakiel

    barakiel Echo Bravo Master Sergeant

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    I think the last point in particular by RedZealot is a really good one. Along those lines, I see three types of players attracted to Tohaa:

    • Players who have always like the faction. These are the guys who dig aliens, weird tech, etc.
    • Mature players, probably ITS veterans or long-time Infinity guys, who value the toolbox arsenal of the faction, and like that Tohaa give them such a broad range of interesting rules and capabilities.
    • Players who heard Tohaa were good and play for Sukeul + Symbiomates and Makaul.

    The last category of player will be pretty unhappy, but it isn't like Makaul got any worse. The first two categories of players will probably roll with the punches. The most successful Tohaa players I've seen lately aren't even relying heavily on Mates. They're making game-winning moves with Makaul, Clipsos, and (more and more) Surdaa beasts, none of which particularly care about the changes to Mates. I think Mates, as a mechanic, were already being overcome by strong players to begin with. The emerging Tohaa meta, in my view, will center around the use of Low Viz, Saturation (via Nimbus Plus or Stratuscloud) to manipulate modifiers and reduce the effectiveness of enemy super-links, while making direct template weapons more deadly. This is powerful stuff, and the changes to Mates really don't affect it at all.
     
  9. Ben Kenobi

    Ben Kenobi Well-Known Member

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    Ok, reveal your secret. What exactly do you mean that is available in Vanilla Tohaa.
     
  10. Ben Kenobi

    Ben Kenobi Well-Known Member

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    Which weaknesses?
    The took away all strength in Spiral and I can't see the strength they brought to them.
    There are some little funny things compared to Vanilla but not more.

    Edit: for my playstyle with a defensive Triad the Gao Rael belongs in the first category.
     
  11. East of Irem

    East of Irem Well-Known Member

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    Nothing revolutionary, the usual way to make active high burst single models without BS mods useful is to either reduce the downside of losing a face to face roll or offer them a way to increase their odds of winning that face to face roll. The reinforcements from spiral offer some options in that respect. Whether those options are better than what is currently available in tohaa remains to be seen, but you know just as well as I do what the draal, taagma and kriigel do: additional options unarguably are, can they interact with the rasails use in game? yes! they sure do, the spiral only profiles offer nothing for the rasail specifically, what does it care about smoke LGL and tricore?
     
  12. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    The presence of *any* Impersonation at all is a game changer. Getting dunked on by Clipsos top of 1 is bad enough, but these new guys won't even have to roll. Just the threat of it will force people to deploy differently against Tohaa.


    I dunno, I think that pretty much every Tohaa list I played against was relying on Symbiomates to one degree or another, and some were full degeneracy with multiple Sukeul HMGs protected by mates and a whole crapton of Makauls with double CoC. I have a feeling that the absolute competitive pinnacle of the faction is getting nerfed - but we both know Tohaa players who have succeeded with a Bomb/Mate setup or even just one Kaeltar in a given list.
     
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  13. Ben Kenobi

    Ben Kenobi Well-Known Member

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    @East of Irem my Rasail had never a high burst weapon, cause I had never the SWC left for a spitfire. Therefore Spiral brings nothing to them if you don't use this specific profile.

    @Hecaton I don't see the value of the IMP trooper in Vanilla. The available profiles is crap cause you'll have no template or AP and CC you can forget completely. Therefore it isn't worth neither the points nor the orders. But I can be totally wrong, this will show the future.
    And IMO they are no thread, cause the damage potential is much lesser then even compared to the Fiday
     
  14. Hiereth

    Hiereth AI Artichoke

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    Maybe I'm building lists real weird, but I almost always have SWC left over in Tohaa lists, and even then (probably because of local boards) take the Viral Combi over spitfire in a lot of cases.
    I don't know where all the swc goes.
     
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  15. Musterkrux

    Musterkrux Well-Known Member

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    Don't tell them our secrets...
     
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  16. Ben Kenobi

    Ben Kenobi Well-Known Member

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    @Hiereth
    Viral Combi is no high burst weapon. And yes, I take the viral too.
    Gao Rael Sniper 1
    2 Kaeltar 1
    Sukeul HMG 1,5
    Sukeul ML 1,5

    There aren't 2 SWC left for the Spitfire.
     
  17. colbrook

    colbrook Grenade Delivery Specialist

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    Tohaa were great before they got the Sukuel, and even before the current Symbiomates. I played against them a lot back then and it was always an uphill struggle, people need to learn to walk without their crutches.
     
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  18. Ben Kenobi

    Ben Kenobi Well-Known Member

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    Really great suggestion. Especially for a non Tohaa player.
     
  19. nehemiah

    nehemiah Well-Known Member

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    While agree with most of your analysis, I would say loosing ODD along with the Symbiont is a pretty dramatic change for Armand.

    For me generally the biggest hit for me when loosing Symbiont armor is the loss of my attached 'bomb.
     
  20. RobertShepherd

    RobertShepherd Antipodean midwit

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    I'm also not totally sure Draal struggle that much for losing symbioarmour. They get downgraded BS and MOV values, but interestingly they retain a little ARM, and critically they retain their stratuscloud. Especially if the symbiont loss happens at the tail end of an early game offensive run, you're really not that far down for the loss.
     
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