To be fair you should be able to get Joan and multiple link members into the cc, pushing the odds significantly in Joan's favor.
yeah, the problem is if the morlock has EM CCW and decide to attack other fireteam member instead the leader
I mean, the "but what about!" response to something you can literally watch happen in VaulSC's video is... Well, out of respect of the community standards of the forum I am not going to finish that sentence. But I do respect the point which is being made, however I will remind everyone that Hospitallers aren't exactly terrible in CC, and the range of units that Joan is better off in CC against but the Hospitallers aren't is VERY narrow. So you STILL don't lose much by ditching Joan and simply picking up a full Hospitaller Fireteam instead of the Crusade Fireteam. And, as I pointed out, ditching the Crusade Fireteam doesn't necessarily mean ditching Joan. I'd even go so far as to argue that Joan outside the Crusade Fireteam is better than sticking her in it.
Doesn't even have to be a fifth Hospitaller come to think of it... after all, can't an Order Sergeant join that link then, if it isn't a Crusade team?
I kinda find ma 3 to be a big boi swing. If anything I feel the swing is too big, among the levels, perhaps ma1 should be a +3 to use like protheion , something should be done about ma2 as well, since it is decidedly not the most common level used (unless you are hitting something immobile like a door)
Is MA 3 better than MA 2? Sure. But here's the thing, every time you are considering sending Joan into CC you are competing with a BS 23 B 3 Boarding Shotgun. There are not many targets against which the CC is the better option regardless of the presence of Joan. And, again, it's not necessarily about including Joan or not, because you might still bring Joan along. You might just not want her in the Fireteam, instead taking her as a separate unit, for example: Military Orders ────────────────────────────────────────────────── 10 3 KNIGHT HOSPITALLER HMG / Pistol, DA CCW. (2 | 39) KNIGHT HOSPITALLER Boarding Shotgun / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 31) KNIGHT HOSPITALLER Boarding Shotgun / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 31) KNIGHT HOSPITALLER Doctor (MediKit) Combi Rifle / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 35) ORDER SERGEANT Heavy Rocket Launcher / Assault Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 15) JOAN OF ARC Lieutenant Spitfire, Nanopulser / Pistol, AP CCW. (1 | 51) MAGISTER KNIGHT Panzerfaust, Light Shotgun / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 23) MAGISTER KNIGHT Panzerfaust, Light Shotgun / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 23) MAGISTER KNIGHT Panzerfaust, Light Shotgun / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 23) BLACK FRIAR (Albedo, Biometric Visor L1) MULTI Rifle, Nanopulser, Drop Bears / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 28) 4.5 SWC | 299 Points Open in Infinity Army
It's kind of a back and forth, if I can get Joan into cc , I can prob get at least 1 other knight into cc. Then its burst 2 cc 26 and DMG 15 vs the shotgun. Obviously the shotgun is superior if you can catch even one extra model under the template
Ranged attacks don't expose other members of the Fireteam to unopposed retaliation in the same way bringing more than one into CC does 'though. And the range on CC is shorter. And the whole point is that you aren't competing just with the Shotgun, but also with the CC 21 DMG 15 DA hit of a Hospitaller (with the same opportunity for piling on if multiple team members managed to get within 4"). It's pointless arguing that "Joan is better in CC", that's objectively true. The question is "does the small amount that Joan is better in CC by make it worth accepting all the restrictions of the Crusade Fireteam?" And to THAT question I'm saying the answer is "no". You know what? List concepts with Joan outside of the Crusade Fireteam are just so easy to put together! Military Orders ────────────────────────────────────────────────── 10 3 JOAN OF ARC Lieutenant MULTI Rifle, Nanopulser / Pistol, DA CCW. (+1 | 50) TEUTONIC KNIGHT (NCO) Spitfire / Pistol, AP CCW. (2 | 39) MAGISTER KNIGHT Panzerfaust, Light Shotgun / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 23) MAGISTER KNIGHT Panzerfaust, Light Shotgun / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 23) MAGISTER KNIGHT Panzerfaust, Light Shotgun / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 23) ORDER SERGEANT Heavy Rocket Launcher / Assault Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 15) KNIGHT HOSPITALLER Doctor (Fireteam: Haris, MediKit) Combi Rifle / Pistol, DA CCW. (0.5 | 36) KNIGHT HOSPITALLER HMG / Pistol, DA CCW. (2 | 39) KNIGHT HOSPITALLER Boarding Shotgun / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 31) SPEC. SERGEANT Hacker (Hacking Device) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 21) 6.5 SWC | 300 Points Open in Infinity Army
i agree with you on that end that the added restriction is by no means worth it. im just saying that 5 point swing in cc from joan to hospitaller makes a huge difference specially when adding more burst i still feel your list ends up better with a santiago spitfire over the teuton. Specially cuz i feel this list wants to utilize joan as a solo piece, which would benefit from her own lt order.
'eh, you don't have any CoC so you don't want to risk Joan too early. That makes the NCO valuable as a tool for the first or second turn IF you don't use the Coordinated Order.
If you can't use her Lieutenant order to get a FREE Coordinated order EACH turn, why are you bringing her in? #VanillaPanO
Well, it is a bit harder to memorize every single Lieutenant option than "Blonde knight lady make blonde orders green when Lieutenant." Unless it's Ikari. They have the most obvious Lieutenants. A good point nonetheless.
Interesting .... I would agree you can have very nice Knight Fireteam without Joan. But if you do that, then it completly changes you general tactic (which is more important than your list). When doing the special crusade* link your idea is that your lieutenant is protected by being in the middle of a Knight link, even if it is in the ennemy deploiement zone (DZ) If joan is a solo lieutenant you are probably not going to rush into the ennemyDZ and try to kill everything with your link since it would probably leave your lieutenant alone and an easy target. Or do you think you can throw a knight fireteam as a missile and still have enough troops to cover your lieutenant in your DZ ? Maybe ... would have to give it a try. PS : I don't understand why they called it the crusade fireteam ... Joan of Arc never participated into any crusade. Her character has never been about "punish the infidel". It was more nationalistic and free the poor people of the kingdom who are suffering from English raiding parties. Even in Infinity lore she is more a rallying figure for Pano than a crazy "let's kill everything" character like Achilles.
Which does little against E/M, hacking, smoke etc. Joan link was always win big, lose big option. Going full retard into someones DZ (with mere 10 orders) on 1st turn was never a good option. Any skilled opponent should deploy his stuff on the opposite side of this link team just to starve it's orders even more. New MO rushes DZ much worse than a previous one, as whenever you spend orders on your HMG to clear AROs you are not advancing your link towards enemy DZ (as you could with Mag+Hosp). Not to mention that the Magisters were an actual buffer which allowed the link to withstand much of punishment. Not the first time and not the last. Crusader fireteam just sounds cool etc. itc.
Because you will use that in turn 2 and 3. The NCO and Fireteam is to make use of the resource in Turn 1, when ARO threats make throwing up the Magisters unlinked with co-ordinated orders is a risk. 'though if you hit a REALLY hard ARO you can still break the Fireteam and wipe it out with a co-ordinated Panzerfaust volley.
