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Pavel Assault + Natural Born Warrior + Surprise Attack

Discussion in '[Archived]: N3 Rules' started by Cry of the Wind, Mar 22, 2019.

  1. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    Well, I was le dumb. I completely missed the Short Skill of it and focussed on it having a CC Special Skill table.

    This table is also interesting:
    http://infinitythewiki.com/en/CC_Special_Skills_Chart

    The skill type is a mix of "MODs these Skills and IS these types" so is confusing. But I can see where it's going.

    Reading it all again, RAW it certainly looks like you can't Assault + Surprise Attack because Suprise Attack isn't a type of CC Attack. Equally, RAW you only add ATK MODs or PH MODs to a CC Attack.

    That being said, I think that Surprise Attack should actually be treated as an Automatic CC Special Skill. Which would make it just like MA / NBW.
     
  2. Cry of the Wind

    Cry of the Wind Well-Known Member

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    That was my gut as well reading it over the first time and why I asked the question. It feels like it should be a combo, especially because of how the shooting skills work but when reading it RAW it looks like it isn't.

    I fully agree and I think shooting and CC should be treated the same when it comes to marker state and mods, just is a cleaner game that way.
     
  3. daboarder

    daboarder Force One Commander
    Warcor

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    you can Assault+Surprise attack, this was Discussed when he came out
     
  4. Nuada Airgetlam

    Nuada Airgetlam Nazis sod off ///

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    If he's still a Camo, I assume that despite
    he's revealed only when he's b2b with the target and actually makes the attack, right? He can't be targeted with ARO on the path of his MOVE+ MOVE, unless something Discovers him and something else shoots him?
     
  5. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Declaring Assault is in itself a cancellation trigger for Camouflage, meaning as soon as you declare it (whether in range or not) you drop camo. Additionally, having camouflage cancel from anything other than Discover will cancel it for the entire order.
     
  6. sorniak

    sorniak Well-Known Member

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    Soooo...that also means that surprise shot + speculative fire (huznakut lgl for example) doesn't work?
     
  7. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    Not at all. You only need to start the order in a Marker state to benefit from Surprise Shot.
     
  8. sorniak

    sorniak Well-Known Member

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    but it does drop camo, and everything in infinity is simultaneous + dropping camo usually means it is off for entire order (maybe that is why surprise shot and surprise attack are short skills???.... I mean, it is possible to conclude that assault + surprise attack is more legal then surprise shot + speculative fire using the logic that was provided above).
     
  9. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    The reason that, RAW, Assault + Surprise Attack isn't legal has nothing to do with the timing of when Camo is dropped. Rather it's because Surprise Attack is not a CC Attack and Assault permits Move (1st + 2nd value) + CC Attack.

    Speculative Fire Surprise Shot OTOH works because Surprise Shot is a BS Attack and Speculative Fire allows you to perform a BS Attack.

    The reason that all-at-one-time doesn't prevent Surprise Attack/Shot is because Surprise Attack/Shot would NEVER be usuable if that was the case. Moreover, the rule itself is clear:
    "The user of this Special Skill must be in Marker state(Camouflage, TO, Impersonation-1...) or in Hidden Deploymentstate when he is assigned an Order and activates"

    If you are in a Marker state at Step 1 or 2 of the order you may benefit from Surprise Shot/Attack, even if subsequently you drop the state.
     
    #29 inane.imp, Mar 24, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2019
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  10. sorniak

    sorniak Well-Known Member

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    ee...but assault has a cc attack inside it, as a part of skill...hmm
    Ok, so if I understand you well then Special Maneuver: Discover + BS Attack is not possible for surprise shot?
     
  11. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    You're misunderstanding him. Bs Attack is a Bs Attack, which is the requirement for Surprise Attack.
     
  12. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    Assault has a CC Attack but Surprise Attack is not a CC Attack. It's different (RAW). Performing a Surprise Attack and performing a CC Attack are different things. OTOH Assault with Protheion is legal because Protheion is a CC Attack

    In the same way, Discover + Suprise Attack is legal because Surprise Attack is a "BS Attack", so it's no different (in terms of type of skill) from performing a regular BS Attack.
     
  13. sorniak

    sorniak Well-Known Member

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    Weeeell... Ok. Got it.
    But after reading forwrad on cc special skills (which surprise attack is):

    CC Special Skills are Specials Skills that can be used while engaged in Close Combat.

    All Skills included in the group of CC Special Skills share a few common traits:

    • Their use is optional.
    • They are only usable in Close Combat, so a trooper must be in base to base contact with an enemy in order to use them.
    • CC Special Skills, as well as all MODs provided by them, work and are applied in both Active and Reactive Turns, unless otherwise specified.
    • If a trooper has more than one CC Special Skill, he can use them all and combine their effects. For instance, a trooper with Berserk and Martial Arts can apply both and combine the MODs provided by the former with the MODs of one of the Levels of the latter.
    If a CC Special Skill is an exception to these rules, it is stated explicitly in its description.

    And surprise attack is a CC Special Skill - so no reason not to use it during assault? From description cc special skill works pretty similar to mod
     
  14. toadchild

    toadchild Premeasure

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    One of the dark secrets of N3 is that some of the skill labeling is a little inconsistent for no particularly discernible reason. We can try to make consistent rulings based on the actual wording, but if the input is inconsistent, the output will be as well.
     
  15. toadchild

    toadchild Premeasure

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    I admit I’ve forgotten what the ruling on that was. Can you remind me?
     
  16. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Think it prevents Domaru from declaring Assault and also having the Haramaki make any sort of Move at all.

    Edit: Tanko-shmanko. They'll always be Haramaki to me :p
     
    #36 Mahtamori, Mar 24, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2019
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  17. Cry of the Wind

    Cry of the Wind Well-Known Member

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    Tried searching for that but couldn't find anything which is why I made this. Got a link?
     
  18. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    Possibly on FB. If the rules were discussed in detail it almost certainly would have come out "well they really appear like they should work together".

    I don't think anyone is seriously arguing that they don't, only that the rules say that they don't.
     
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  19. toadchild

    toadchild Premeasure

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    Is that our current final answer? "It's probably fine, don't worry about it too much."
     
  20. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    It's my meta's.

    I mean @arkhos74 should (Please :) ) add this to the list because it should be fixed (just make Surprise Attack an Automatic skill rather than a Short Skill) but otherwise, yeah, play it the way that makes sense.
     
    #40 inane.imp, Mar 25, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2019
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