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A MOment of bitterness

Discussion in 'PanOceania' started by Judge Dredd, Mar 13, 2019.

  1. MikeTheScrivener

    MikeTheScrivener O-12 Peace Kepper

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    You don't see how not posting the full thing or your sources actively hurt your argument?
    You seriously can't expect me to just take the word of a frequent MO complainer and his mystical excel spreadsheet at face value?
     
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  2. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    This is not secret knowledge, everyone who used this tool (ever) will immediately recognise it.

    Reasons why I'm not putting the source I've explained earlier. Unless the consencious will it is (source) that needed I can post it here (though, we will then need a bigger attention from @psychoticstorm ).
     
  3. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    Assume that I don't follow all the PanO complain threads. Assume that I don't recognise the tool. Why aren't you posting the source?
     
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  4. MikeTheScrivener

    MikeTheScrivener O-12 Peace Kepper

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    what?
     
  5. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    If you take what I write "on faith" value then what's the reason to have a discussion in the first place ?

    And if the source is such needed there you go:

    enjoy fellas: google "tabletop turniere"
     
  6. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    You aware I also play NCA and OSS ?
     
  7. MikeTheScrivener

    MikeTheScrivener O-12 Peace Kepper

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    I don't want to take what you're saying on faith value – I want you to back up your claims with unedited numbers with context. I don't want to have a discussion based on your secret numbers.

    literally has nothing to do with what I said
     
  8. Sedral

    Sedral Jīnshān Task Force Officier

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    https://www.tabletoptournaments.net/eu/t3_armies.php?cid=0&gid=21

    Though I think it's to be noted that, unlike most other games, Infinity has its very own tournament software so all tournaments in Europe aren't registered. I know for a fact that we never use T3 for our local tournaments in Paris.

    Also, no data on the USA.
     
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  9. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    Ok. So MO is an army that has been used by 1.9% of tournament participants in the data set and won 1.2% of all tournaments in the data set. Without looking at the stats more than I want to, I can't tell whether this is within the margin of error for this dataset or not.

    In addition, the analysis doesn't allow us to account for the likelihood of any one participant winning a tournament irrespective of the force taken.

    The data set isn't filterable by epoch. You can however filter by the last 6 months of results. Which informs us that QK is the top tier force in Europe* at present.

    Flawless argument Eciu.

    * For values of Europe that = areas that contribute to this data set.
     
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  10. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    Still better "I win a lot in my club" one.

    I've never claimed this data to be anything more than a subset of tournaments reported to this tool.
     
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  11. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    Until today I didn't even know that website existed.
     
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  12. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    Actually you never claimed anything. You posted a snapshot of some data without context seeming to imply that the data revealed that MO was shit tier when it's trivially easy to see that it show that the data doesn't do that. It's argument by insinuation and a woeful way to have a useful conversation.
     
  13. Teslarod

    Teslarod when in doubt, Yeet

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    Yeah so take it with a grain of salt, still the numbers provide a statistic covering over 1500 games played across all Factions.
    There are obviously some noteworthy things like QK being very high on the "power" scale, which is mostly because one guy who is pretty good at the game plays them almost exclusively.

    In terms of games played MO is somewhere in the midfield. Performance is bottom 3.
    All Vanilla Factions are pretty much at the top, which I'd interpret mostly as people having trouble with getting value out of full Core Links. Vanilla Factions are all viable, surprisingly PanO is doing rather well.
    JSA is still present in both iterations and only 7 games played for the new one. So this is all old data, none of the games played should be new MO.
    So this doesn't really matter for our discussion aside from old MO not being that great.
    We can come back in a couple months and see if MO dropped further or kept at the same value. It should rise a bit simply because a fluffy list should be better than before. People don't only run optimal lists after all, if the rating drops after 50 games played post rework, then MO is truly screwed.
     
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  14. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    How so, the only "problem" with it (as also I've mentioned) is fact that's an obvious subsection and incomplete data.

    All it supports is a "trend", as you have had mentioned data form 6 last moths differ, but you can see common points between "general" and "last 6 months" results.
     
  15. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    Let's assume for a moment that we can in fact discern a trend between two points and that the difference between the performance of MO in the last 6 months and the entire history of the data set isn't just normal statistical variation.

    How do you explain that, in general, below average players seem to play MO?*

    * This seems to be the argument Eciu is pushing... although I'm not entirely certain I've understood him correctly.
     
  16. fari

    fari CRISTASOL, EL LIQUIDO DE LOS DIOSES

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    Easy. Because competitive players feel comfy using vanilla instead a limited sectorial like MO
     
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  17. Guardian

    Guardian Well-Known Member
    Warcor

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    I guess someone needs to be at the bottom, right?
     
  18. C0MR4DE

    C0MR4DE Malfunctioning Unidron

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    About a few days i try to build my own MO list, but simply i cant. I used to be a CA player and i played bakunin before etc... but i have a hard time to build a single list in MO... Horrible :)
     
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  19. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    Smoke works right up until it doesn't, unless you happen to be Tohaa, ASS, or have White Noise to combo with it Smoke isn't gonna do what you want it to all the time because MSV is a thing.

    On the other hand camo markers will guarantee you a move+move every single time. You can reliably move from cover to cover rearming that camo and get past even the nastiest of ARO enemies like everyone's favourite Kamau.

    Mates give you an immunity in a firefight you need to stop and have, and of course you can eat a crit. Camo state lets you straight up bypass a firefight and go do something else.


    You're complaining you get one of the nastiest camo fighters in the game for MO because other people also get camo fighters? Are you annoyed that Vanilla Pan-O doesn't get Dart? Did you forget the part where you have multiple camo state TAGs or a Swiss Guard? Vanilla has plenty of toys in that department too.


    Yeah see this is you stuck in your box again. That box being the "MUST BRING MANY KNIGHTS FOR MO"

    This just isn't true. You have options.

    Firstly your line infantry isn't particularly expensive. Do you hear Tunguska bitching about Securitate as a defensive link? Because they're also 13pt BS12 line infantry and they can't build a defensive core link backed by TO Sniper traps.

    You get six dudes for 88pts. That's normal costs.

    Military Orders
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    [​IMG]6
    ORDER SERGEANT MULTI Sniper Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 21)
    ORDER SERGEANT Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 13)
    ORDER SERGEANT Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 13)
    ORDER SERGEANT Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 13)
    ORDER SERGEANT Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 13)
    ORDER SERGEANT Heavy Rocket Launcher / Assault Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 15)

    3 SWC | 88 Points

    You have an ARO link with a spare member that once you lose the sniper, it reforms into an aggressive link with a HRL+Assault Pistol with link bonuses that can push into the mid field and attack whatever pushed up to fight the sniper.

    In comparison to other defensive links, let's say the Invincible's Zhanshi as they're another HI focused sectorial


    Invincible Army
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    [​IMG]6
    ZHANSHI Missile Launcher / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 16)
    ZHANSHI Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 11)
    ZHANSHI Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 11)
    ZHANSHI HMG / Pistol, Knife. (1 | 19)
    PANGGULING FTO (Repeater) Light Shotgun / Electric Pulse. (0 | 13)
    SON-BAE Yaókòng Missile Launcher / Electric Pulse. (1.5 | 17)

    4 SWC | 87 Points

    Costs basically the same except they get -1 BS.

    Order Sergeant links are fine cost wise. They're not a Kamau or Dakini link but let's get real here if you expect to get that kind of value out of every link in the game you're in for a rude shock because that's not how it works.

    You can build viable lists practically without touching the HI in MO if you want to. Dart's practically a HI (she's better HI than a Zencha and we're accepting that's HI).


    GROUP 1[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]10
    ORDER SERGEANT MULTI Sniper Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 21)
    ORDER SERGEANT Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 13)
    ORDER SERGEANT Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 13)
    ORDER SERGEANT Heavy Rocket Launcher / Assault Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 15)
    ORDER SERGEANT Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 13)
    ORDER SERGEANT Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 13)
    DART Submachine Gun, Viral Tactical Bow, E/M Grenades / Pistol, Shock CC Weapon, Knife. (0 | 34)
    JOAN OF ARC Lieutenant MULTI Rifle, Nanopulser / Pistol, AP CCW. (+1 | 49)
    SPEC. SERGEANT (CH: TO Camouflage, Infiltration, Forward Observer) Combi Rifle, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 27)
    SPEC. SERGEANT (CH: TO Camouflage, Infiltration, Forward Observer) Combi Rifle, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 27)

    GROUP 2[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]2 [​IMG]2
    WARCOR (Aerocam) Flash Pulse / Stun Pistol, Knife. (0 | 3)
    SPEC. SERGEANT (CH: TO Camouflage, Infiltration) MULTI Sniper Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 33)
    SPEC. SERGEANT (CH: TO Camouflage, Infiltration) MULTI Sniper Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 33)
    TECH-BEE (Remote Assistant Level 1, Specialist Operative) Flash Pulse / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5)

    6 SWC | 299 Points

    You can play a TO camo skirmishing game if you want with sniper traps laid around your table. There is no must bring knights. I get that thematically you want to bring knights but complaining that the faction is underpowered and badly designed when you're deliberately refusing to explore your options is a faulty perspective to take.

    You have options. It's on you to take a look outside of your box.

    I would refer to those players as, well, not particularly competent players. Pan-O have already won one satellite tournament this year so far. The "corner case solution" you are pretending that the poor impoverished Pan-O faction must scrabble for was apply Kamau and TO Camo TAG to opponents face until they ceased resistance.


    Yes, did I tell you everything that isn't Morats doesn't have camo markers? I'm pretty sure that's got nothing to do with what I said at all. Camo markers can be used in a very similar fashion to mates where it acts as an ablative shield that can absorb 1 ARO from your opponent.

    You move into the open, your opponent ARO Discover/Delays. Regardless of his decision you continue moving into another piece of cover. Congratulations, your camo shielded you from 1 ARO just like a Symbiomate can. Even if he discovered successfully you can just reapply Camo and continue ducking from cover to cover. And if he failed you can now run at that model with complete impunity.

    Doing that you can actually play quite aggressively into enemy lines to do things like assassinate an obvious cheerleader LT or try to pick off something really important like Emily Datatracker before she can shell your DVT for extra points.

    That is a super easy question to answer. "Why not just play Acon" with Dart. Because if you want to play Dart with TO Camo models like snipers backing her up this is what Acon has to offer you:

    [​IMG]


    She's a competitive option that isn't overshadowed by other models in her price bracket, being expensive isn't a proper argument, she's worth her cost and you can build lists around her as shown before. You just need to get out of the hurrr must bring core knight links at all cost box mode of thinking.

    Look that's a fair complaint it could've been themed better with Koni, but at the same time you can't complain that you don't have competitive options if you refuse to use them. These are the cards you've been dealt, they do work, if you don't like them then really that's just stiff shit. Save the complaints for something that actually is garbage and needs a fix like Teutons.


    Again, you have options. You can say you don't like the theme but you can't bitch that the sectorial is weak if you refuse to use your options


    Look I got bad news for you. You can't have BS14-15 core linking models and then also be able to take JSA in a fist fight. That's not how this game works. You want your HI link to be like Domaru in CC? Then you need to be BS12 like them too. You can't be the king of shooting and melee at the same time.


    Look, nobody is convinced Teutons are good. Nobody is telling you that.


    That's because you don't look outside your box and refuse to play with your options. Right off the top of my head you can build a multi FK core link backing up a main attacking Haris link if you want to.


    [​IMG]10
    FATHER-KNIGHT Missile Launcher / Breaker Pistol, DA CCW. (1.5 | 49)
    FATHER-KNIGHT Lieutenant Spitfire / Breaker Pistol, DA CCW. (2 | 50)
    ORDER SERGEANT Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 13)
    ORDER SERGEANT Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 13)
    ORDER SERGEANT Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 13)
    ORDER SERGEANT Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 13)
    KNIGHT OF SANTIAGO Hacker (Killer Hacking Device) Combi Rifle, Nanopulser, D-Charges + 1 TinBot A (Deflector L1) / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 38)
    KNIGHT HOSPITALLER HMG / Pistol, DA CCW. (2 | 39)
    KNIGHT HOSPITALLER Doctor (Fireteam: Haris, MediKit) Combi Rifle / Pistol, DA CCW. (0.5 | 36)
    DART Submachine Gun, Viral Tactical Bow, E/M Grenades / Pistol, Shock CC Weapon, Knife. (0 | 34)

    6 SWC | 298 Points
     
  20. Skoll

    Skoll Well-Known Member

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    For one tunguska was filled with bitching about securitates cost when it came out despite them being a straight upgrade from OS.

    Order sgt. Are sub par, and you are linking them with multiple father knights in a link that's confused as to its identity, where you dont know if you want to stick in your DZ and be defensive or advance and use that spitfire.

    Exchanges in this game just aren't won by bringing bs12 models without modifiers.

    Focusing on hi links isn't not thinking outside the box is focusing on the identity of the sectorial.

    Did you notice that in the list you posted the best options are your TO and camo models while the rest of it anchors it from greatness ?

    You are sitting on an obvious LT. With a myriad of super fragile units. It feels like you are attempting to run an ariadna list out of faction and obviously coming short for it.

    Aside from that your complaint about smoke is that it works till it doesn't? That's everything in this game. Your hidden deployment is great till an antipode assault pack sensors the table. To is great till it gets hit by msv 3, the list goes on.

    Not mention I acknowledge smoke doesn't work 100%of the time it just so happens to work against the grand majority of them.

    I also dont understand the weird jab at the zencha? Dart just gets to be better optimized because she is a character and also goes to show you how much arm 3 is overcosted.
     
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