A MOment of bitterness

I think it's fair to say that MO have some great profiles and link options, which is kind of the basis for how a Sectoral should work. I recent played against the below list and I'm not sure how it could really be classified as indicative of MO being shit or anything.

Military Orders──────────────────────────────────────────────────10 FATHER-KNIGHT Missile Launcher / Breaker Pistol, DA CCW. (1.5 | 49) KNIGHT OF SANTIAGO Lieutenant (Specialist Operative) Spitfire, Nanopulser, E/M Grenades, D-Charges / Pistol, DA CCW. (1 | 43) BLACK FRIAR (Albedo, Biometric Visor L1) MULTI Rifle, Nanopulser, Drop Bears / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 28) ORDER SERGEANT Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 13) ORDER SERGEANT Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 13) MACHINIST (Father-Engineer) Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 15) KNIGHT HOSPITALLER HMG / Pistol, DA CCW. (2 | 39) KNIGHT HOSPITALLER Doctor (Fireteam: Haris, MediKit) Combi Rifle / Pistol, DA CCW. (0.5 | 36) KNIGHT OF SANTIAGO Hacker (Killer Hacking Device) Combi Rifle, Nanopulser, D-Charges + 1 TinBot A (Deflector L1) / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 38) SIERRA DRONBOT HMG / Electric Pulse. (1 | 25) 6 SWC | 299 PointsOpen in Infinity Army

MO seem eminently playable to me. The new Santiagos, KotHS and Hospitallers are awesome, the mixed FK and OS link is awesome, the Montesa is a fantastic troop... Really there are many good options here.

 

What I like with this list (and almost any list with a core and a haris) is how much flexibility you have to create the core you need at any momen, a la Druze style.

Here, if the FK with missile falls, you can integrate the santiago lt and a sergent into the hospitalier haris to create a new core.

 

The whole concept becomes really dicy as you have to (almost always) include LT inside said link and/or include some LI.

And every knight in MO is subpar in survibility when comperad to humble Magisters.

Yes, in theory it's a great thing to be able to do. The problem is this requires both teams being close to each other to be efficient (in reforming) which then works against the idea of having actually 2 teams being able to assault from 2 different flanks/vectors.

So possible on paper, hard to pull of on table.

(heck in theory you can eve do that with Santiago+Magister link which transforms into Crusader Team with Joanie)

 

CB's magic. I would though say it's minor thing, but on the other hand the "crusader firetam" just got a nice kick in the crouch with those additional limitations...

 

Man, I hate that Army Mobile bug that doesn't include line breaks...

And yes, that's about what I'm looking at for my Mercedarian Order list with de Fersen instead of the FK.

 

Nooo the memories.....

 

That's to stop her being the default LT, blame Inspiring Leadership for no wildcard and a restrictive link.

If she goes in any link she automatically out competes every other LT option you have because of the effective points efficiency per order she grants with a Warcor and Tech-Bee. Plus you know also being BS15 with a potential shooting option combined with having an unmatched WIP15 in faction there'd never be any chance you use a different LT.

 

Arguably she already is the default LT choice, not that we have that many. Santiago Spitfire, F-K, Hospitaller, Teuton, de Fersen. Of those she offers the most value by a mile and probably the best survivability.

 

Tell that to the linkable, wildcard, Inspiring, Wallace (and his smoke grenades rolling at 20s)

 

She's not because of the link restriction. Wanna play the no Teuton Teutons link? Joan can't be in that so now Santiago is more viable.

What I think MO needed more than LT options was a more viable solo defensive link and some more special Haris options for the knights. Allowing a Druze Clipper to link with Order Sergeants and giving Hospitallers+X or Father Knights+Magisters some kind of Haris would make things less bland. It would also improve the viability of non linked attack pieces like the Seraph if you have better link options to defend it. Right now the Magister MSR leans a bit too heavily on being backed up by the threat of a TO Magister standing next to him which while really effective is pretty expensive. Opening up a cheaper defensive link with more options with Clippers wouldn't hurt.

With that said, a mildly inflammatory opinion is that Pan-O players need to think outside the "muh BS stat" and "I got no smokes" boxes a bit more. Like one of the strong points to MO is they can low key build one of the better TO camo spam lists in the game. There's more finesse in this game than a BS beatstick or Smoke Grenades.

 

I wasn't there this year, but in my experience it's best to make your two lists for the MiGT under the assumption one will be for dense terrain, and one for light terrain.

 

counter inflammatory position , Pano players already think outside the box, because unlike other factions they dont have 17 answers to 1 problem, they have just the one shoot it dead and it fast becomes a tight rope when your attack pieces go down to lucky crits.

 

Since we're being inflammatory: clearly you're all talking about how you have one of (if not the) best combat specialist in the game with the Santiago KHD? Cybermask + BS14 solves a LOT of "I got locked into my DZ" problems. Or are we still dismissing anything with 'just a Combi'? [emoji14] /friendly-ribbing

As do Crusaders in ITSX. Sure they're not the best AD in the game, but I've been toweled up enough times by BS13 AD to fear them.

I do agree that knights are a fairly blunt instrument (but that is kinda their raison d'etre). But I'm less convinced by the gripes about MO as a whole: I certainly don't write off MO when facing them at all.

OTOH I do accept that they're probably not absolutely top tier. But I think that's better solved by slightly nerfing the top tier factions than demanding more buffs for MO.

 

You're... kinda proving my point about Pan-O players and their restricted to think outside of exchanging bullets in a firefight.

Hidden deployment and camo markers are some of the strongest abilities in the game, and as a faction you have access to it in spades. Like, Camo markers are straight up as good as a Symbiomate for protection and rumour has it those little bastards are getting nerfed in a couple of weeks. And you can reuse camo (or cybermask). You got options to go around firefights, they're just not Smoke.

You got Dart in two sectorials. You know how much every other faction else would kill for Dart as a non linear problem solver? I'll give you a hint it's alot.

 

That's asinine as hell. Smoke allows not just the bearer to circumvent firefights , smoke is total line of sight blocking cover you just deploy, and it's even better than camo because 90% of the pieces in the game dont get an aro to anything beyond the big ol cylinder of hate. What's more linked smoke grenades means not only multiple uses but multiple uses on the same order.

Mates is another piece that grants basic aro immunity.

Other faction also have dart equivalents backed in, not as aleph borrows that show up in 2 sectorials.

TOFO are awesome , nobody is saying they aren't, I think you'll find every tactica sings their praises.

But they are 27 points in a sectorial with expensive links and expensive line troopers , where you are burning points fast.

And I'm not proving your point, I'm pointing out pano players consistently have to peruse the rules for minute corner cases that allow them to succeed and surprise their opponents, and constantly have to take creative approaches towards simple problems.


@inane.imp I dunno boyo, tigers are spooky, crusaders not so much. Also I'd love to field the hacker as a solo piece but I value his baby sitting of my HI link far too much to risk him trying to leave the DZ on his own, with as you point out merely a combi. If he had a BS, or a spitfire or even an SMG I'd trust him more.

And dont get me wrong I love bs 14, but every midfield skirmisher and his mom is bs 11+ and camo or above. So suddenly deus vult boy is in unfavorable shoot outs with models a 3rd of his points.

 

To be fair, the talk was specifically about a single application on your active turn (get in), and so happens that otherwise rather different mechanics can be used to achieve same results in that specific situation.

 

There are in general a few posters who speak as if their opinion was objective truth, their meta is what all metas are like, hang onto pure numbers a little too tight and dismiss anyone going outside the "optimal" box or "weak" lists or factions placing high in tournaments as "just anecdotal evidence".

Funny how everyone is praising the linked Kamau sniper, but locally the top player is using a double HMG Fusi link with Kamau HRL IIRC. And wins with that and Cobras. Not to mention so many people here are surprised that anyone would be playing vanilla PanO, which I not only play myself, but run into frequently as well (and not just locally). But you know, personal experience.