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Impact template weapon choosing point to fire at

Discussion in '[Archived]: N3 Rules' started by Icchan, Mar 3, 2019.

  1. MindwormGames

    MindwormGames Well-Known Member

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    I hear what you're saying, and y'all admittedly play a lot more and have played a lot longer than me.

    I'm inclined to take your word for it, but it doesn't square with my gameplay experience. I almost never wind up with a model under a template without LoF to the attacker, and I usually don't see it happening to my opponents.

    A few caveats to that, I personally don't use a lot of impact template weapons, and I normally run lots of REMs, which S2 models can see over. And because I run lots of REMs, my outside LoF Dodges are a laugh anyway. Usually it is a helper bot behind a S3 or S4 REM that gets tagged.

    I've only seen it happen when gameplay mistakes were made anyway. Lined up all your S2 Link Team members along a wall? Well, that's on you. Don't do that.

    Have a Prone S2 Trooper behind a S3 Trooper? Better hope the enemy isn't packing a template weapon.

    Put a Trooper within 4" of a friendly Cammo marker? Don't do that.

    Because the AoE of a template weapon is blocked by Total Cover, you need a weird situation to wind up not having LoF to the attacker.

    You need to be behind something that blocks LoF but does NOT provide Cover, e.g. a Friendly Trooper, or you need to have LoF to the blast focus but NOT LoF to the attacker. Or have the attacker in your rear arc.

    Most of those circumstances arise from poor gameplay on your part/good gameplay on your opponent's part. One exception being spec fired grenades, but there's plenty of other issues with how that works.


    And again, from a game design perspective, you are both talking about a gameplay problem that was solved by the introduction of two exceptions to the most fundamental and most used rules in the game. How about fixing the problem another way?

    In these kinds of game design discussions (and I'm not accusing y'all of this, and also I understand this is off topic to a certain extent) people often imagine that it is impossible to have one's cake and eat it, too.

    In game design you can have your cake and eat the crap out of it. What if it was possible to fix the problems you described by reducing complexity, rather than introducing more? Instead of putting rules on top of rules to fix problems caused by the rules (which is a hallmark of Infinity game design), could not one fix problems or issues with the rules by reducing or eliminating rules?

    In theory this is absolutely and unequivocally true. We need not debate ways to 'rewrite' the Infinity rules here. My only point is that you don't necessarily need to write more rules to fix other rules. In other words, the existence of a 'problem' that the introduction of additional rules 'solved' does not inherently mean it was 'good' game design to introduce the new rules, even if they entirely solved the problem.

    That is a mental trap in terms of game design. Kill your babies.
     
    #21 MindwormGames, Mar 4, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2019
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  2. Sangarn

    Sangarn TRIUMcorp CEO
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    thx @MindwormGames for putting my thoughts in proper english^^
    but I also agree that N3 change for less unopposed attacks was a good change for infinity

    The red line for me for complexity is fun, if I have to spend too much time explaining why it work this way: that a problem

    all the template are a nightmare to explain ... like how it work when you get a critic with speculative fire, with a direct template etc..

    It would have been more simple if template were:
    B=number of mini under the template
    three mini under the template ? 3 dices, 1 for each mini
    each minis is opposed, without LoF: -3 etc ...
     
  3. MindwormGames

    MindwormGames Well-Known Member

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    I should also add solving the 'problem' of templates causing Normal Rolls by shifting placement into the Declaration step and having templates trigger a Dodge ARO leverages the basic ARO mechanics to solve the perceived problem.

    This is fine except that leveraging the ARO mechanics still leaves plenty of circumstances in which templates, even when placed at Declaration, result in Normal Rolls.

    This is because only the Reactive Player can declare AROs. (There is an absurdly good reason for this)

    Hence, if a BS attack with a template weapon is chosen as an ARO, only the Active Trooper gets to declare Dodge, and only if the Active Trooper still has a Short Skill to Declare. And the Active Player's Troopers don't even get a Dodge if they have LoF to the attacker!

    So really, the introduction of two exceptions to the most fundamental and most used rules of the game only solved part of the problem.

    'Let's give Reactive Troopers a Dodge ARO if they don't have LoF to the attacker. That will solve the problem of templates and Normal Rolls.'

    Not so. It only solves part of the problem. So if templates causing Normal Rolls really is a big deal, and really is a huge enough problem to justify the added complexity, why is it acceptable for half of the 'problem' to remain?

    Is it because the Active Player gets to chose whether to provoke an ARO from a template wielding enemy Trooper? If that makes it okay, then what about the player choice involved how one sets up model positioning for the Reactive Turn, to say nothing of Hidden Deployment and Marker State Troopers armed with template weapons.

    Just sayin'. Could a more broadly applicable solution have been found? Could it have been done by reducing overall complexity rather than increasing it? Food for thought.
     
  4. colbrook

    colbrook Grenade Delivery Specialist

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    I doubt it would reduce complexity at all, quite the opposite.

    Placing the template anywhere along the movement path is harder from a practical standpoint, unless you're leaving a piece of tape or string to exactly record the movement path of the miniature there's going to be a lot of arguments and confusion about where exactly the template can be placed.

    In addition, if you're letting the template go down after declarations but generating additional AROs from the troopers it hits then you're mangling the order sequence even more than before.

    The current system might seem counterintuitive at first, but in terms of playing the game it's much faster and clearer than any alternative I've seen proposed.
     
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  5. Sangarn

    Sangarn TRIUMcorp CEO
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    ? you just put the template on the table like you do for smoke
    all the mini that touch it gets hit, done.
     
  6. colbrook

    colbrook Grenade Delivery Specialist

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    So templates no longer need a target? How do you calculate modifiers?
     
  7. Sangarn

    Sangarn TRIUMcorp CEO
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    at resolution when you put the template ? ofc if you play by intent the mini have already moved
    but if you play by intent you can say "the member of the fireteam stay out of the template"
    (I don't have the solution just thoughts)
     
  8. solkan

    solkan Well-Known Member

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    So you just want to ignore all of the situations where you put down a template to discourage people walking through it and they do it anyway?

    More importantly, you started all of this because you’re complaint was about templates fixing the position you’re shooting at early. How do you avoid walking into a template that the other player doesn’t want to commit to placing yet?

    1. Fireteam activates and declares BS attack
    2. ARO BS Attack with template. Template not yet placed because you haven’t committed to positioning yet.
    3. Fireteam declares Move
    4. Resolution phase

    You don’t want to place the template yet, how does the Fireteam know how far it’s safe to move without magical thinking or using the word “intent”.

    And then reverse the order:
    1. Fireteam activates and declares Move.
    2. ARO BS Attack with template. Template not yet placed because you haven’t committed to positioning yet.
    3. Active player wants to decide whether to Dodge or shoot back. But you haven’t placed the template yet.
    4. Resolution phase.

    Again, no magical thinking or using the words “I intend”. All movement paths have been marked out and measured as specified in the rules.
     
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  9. PensivePanther

    PensivePanther Active Member

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    Sorry to interject. Reading this thread makes me believe my group has been doing templates all wrong. Could I get clarification I understand?

    Active player declares the move short skill and moves his model out of total cover and into the open. When I declare my ARO to use an impact template, I must place the template on top of the target at the moment I make that declaration. I cannot place the template at any point the target has moved (as with a normal BS attack). It must be on the target at the moment I declare my impact template ARO? Wherever my target ended up with his first short skill move?

    Is that correct? I appreciate it guys!
     
  10. colbrook

    colbrook Grenade Delivery Specialist

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    If the Active player moves first then you can place the template anywhere along their path.

    If they do something else first (Attack/Idle/Dodge, etc) then the template can only be placed on their current position. Even if they move as their second skill
     
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  11. APOLLO457

    APOLLO457 New Member

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    I think I know the answer based on your response, but what if the target moves from total cover into LoF and then back into total cover?
     
  12. colbrook

    colbrook Grenade Delivery Specialist

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    OK, 3 scenarios here.

    1) Active model hokey kokeys as first skill, can be targeted at any point of visible move, second skill irrelevant for this scenario.

    2) Active Idles as first skill out of LoF and ZoC, this generates no ARO, then hokey kokeys as second skill which generates an ARO and can be targeted at any point of visible move.

    3) Active model Idles out of LoF but in ZoC, this generates an ARO which is usually going to be Change Facing (unless the Reactive model has 6th Sense or a Jammer.) Active Model can then move unmolested with their second order.

    Scenario 3 is a common way to get into CC with a model around a corner, kind of simulating the Tueller drill.
     
  13. Sangarn

    Sangarn TRIUMcorp CEO
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    This, it take 5 second and done one less exception for the impact template
    and I use to play with direct template hitting all the fireteam members at range in ARO I think it's an N2
    habit

    But I understand why they done it this way in N3, I don't want to change the rule, I don't care
    I will decide the rule in my area with the other players of my gaming group
     
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  14. Leviathan

    Leviathan Hungry Caliban

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    Somewhat related question about impact template placement...

    With the round template, the rules say its always placed centered on the target's base. Presumably that applies to vertical positioning too?
    In which case... what about situations where you're firing a missile at a TAG that you can see over the top of something? Does the explosion happen at its feet, a point I can't even see, with maximum impact on adjacent models?
     
  15. colbrook

    colbrook Grenade Delivery Specialist

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    The rules have no prescription on height as far as I can see, a Template placed at the top of the Silhouette can still be centred on the base.
     
  16. daboarder

    daboarder Force One Commander
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    that one was discussed a while ago, suffice to say, can or worms.

    theres some odd implications either way you play it, but no real clarity in the rules about what is the correct way
     
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  17. toadchild

    toadchild Premeasure

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    It says centered on the base but gives no guidance as to height. I'm a fan of always being placed at the center of the silhouette cylinder; centered both horizontally and vertically.
     
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  18. daboarder

    daboarder Force One Commander
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    I like that resolution as well, seems hte most intuitive to me and least open to manipulation
     
  19. Tanan

    Tanan Well-Known Member

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    How does Sixth Sense L1 actually work in this case? Keep in mind that enemy might or might not be in ZoC when ARO or delay ARO is declared. What happens if you declare delay ARO and enemy isn't in ZoC?
     
  20. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    When you measure distances, the reactive model will simply lose their ARO because they would have failed to declare ARO at first opportunity.
     
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