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LI against TAK camo spam?

Discussion in 'Haqqislam' started by ik3rian, Feb 9, 2019.

  1. ik3rian

    ik3rian Anti-Ariadnian Specialist

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    So i have come up with an amazing list fo Transmission Matrix and i'm hyped to play it, but now i've realized that i might be facing total camo spam like linked Tankhunters, Streloks with antipodes and Specnaz. Not gonna lie, it is a really sad vision :D Thing is, discovering 20+ markers (or waiting for them to destroy you) or putting 8-16 pts remotes in LI list isnt something that i seek. Fighting enemy that you cant hack or attack until he decide to allow you this is tough, and i really wanted to jump off the QK for a bit, but apparently DJB link and remotes are the best chance - but with 300 points to spare it is hard, and i really hate playing list made for the exact opponent setup.
    You guys faced this problem before? Any tips are welcome!
    Not gonna post my list in case of... Enemy recon... But believe me, i think i could defeat anyone but TAK with it
     
  2. JoKeR

    JoKeR HAWZA Instructor
    Warcor

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    i hear Ariadna? i take this. it fun but it works against them...
     
  3. emperorsaistone

    emperorsaistone Well-Known Member

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    I havent had the oppotunity to play against TAK yet. But if you want to hear my thoughts on the matter, I would need to know with what part of Haqq you want to play and maybe provide a TAK list that you wouldnt want to face.

    Also, I am interested in your list and would ask you, if you send it via PM?
     
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  4. Ixidro

    Ixidro Deep agent infiltrated in PanOceanian HQ

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    Never played vs TAK myself but a linked Djanbazan Shock Marksman Rifle is really good to deal with cammo spam. Also, you can roll an Iguana in QK and put the heavy flammer to work. QK LI list are tougher to play than regular LI Haqq/Hassassin because you lack the cool cheap toys like REM spam and Yuan Yuans and the "Ideal" Djanbazan Core have very little resilience (bioinmunity helps with Shock but sucks vs T2)
     
  5. oldGregg

    oldGregg Well-Known Member

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    I’ve played against TAK a few times. Despite what some players think, your list is extremely important. (And once you have a good one, then you have you to play well).

    I could post a couple lists up and throw some generic opinions around, but @emperorsaistone is 100% right. Would you be willing to share what you might like to play? Why Limited Insertion? If it isn’t part of the format, and you know you’ll be up against a strong TAK list, then you’re putting yourself at a pretty big disadvantage.

    I love LI, but it isn’t the best format for Haqq. Vanilla and QK can do it best, with the odds leaning to QK against your potential opponent.
     
  6. KedzioR_vo

    KedzioR_vo Well-Known Member
    Warcor

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    I've played against TAK few times in few different tournaments and scenario's types. Don't recall to lose any game, while using Druze, Haqq and QK.
    One battle was with an 250pts LI Haqqislam Vanilla, YAMS tournament, with only one Djanbazan (propably a sniper). Tarik took most of the killing on himself that battle, I've just calmly took one camo after another and tried to hide him at the end of my turn.
    I know that so much Camo can be intimidating, I faced full-camo lists few times. Some of those guys are really deadly, but they have to discover themselves to do the mission. The easy way is going with QK, but if I were you I'd take vanilla Haqq with infiltrating specialists and Djan HMG + maybe Knauf or even LeMuet to help clearing the area.

    LI definitely isn't best for Haqq, but still - good luck!


    PozdRawiam / Greetings
     
    oldGregg likes this.
  7. Solar

    Solar Well-Known Member

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    I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that Haqq has some really great anti-camo spam options.

    Firstly, camo spam loathes cheap disposable warbands and Haqq has plenty of those. Anything that's fast, generates orders, doesn't cost a lot, has a decent WIP and a Chain Rifle wrecks infiltrating camo markers and with Kum and Ghazi, Haqq is laughing. Furthermore Ghazi are incredible anti-camo marker guys because you can use intuitive attack with the Jammer to reveal camo markers through walls! So on the active turn, intuitive attack jamming, running up and seeing if they reveal (and chain rifling if they do), intuitive chain rifle attacks etc, disposable troops you don't mind losing... these things work great.

    Furthermore, Daylami do a great job vs camo spam. Inferior Infiltration Daylami near an enemy camo marker, spend the irregular to Discover. Sure, it reveals you, but if you're within 8" what are they going to do, not ARO and potentially get light shotgunned? If you can deploy them right up the board so your opponent doesn't even get cover on the camo marker you're hunting, that's even better. Force the ARO decision, if they shoot then boom light shotgun and you've got a good advantage on the roll with B2 and a Shotgun within 8", if not then you've got a good chance of shooting them anyway. And if you lose them? Eh, they're only a Daylami.

    Plus, feel free to invest in a Rafiq and some sniffer bots. Rush the bots up and dump sniffers, then scan. Not order cheap, but Haqq has plenty of order options so not a big deal. If you're playing QK, then Yuan Yuan are great for flushing Camo Markers, land them nearby and see what your opponent does. If HB? You have Daylami and Ghazi. If you're playing vanilla? Kum, Daylami and Ghazi.

    Trick with playing against camo is to realise that the strength of camo is that it can make a cheap threat dangerous and difficult to root out. A cheaper and disposable piece trade that doesn't care for surprise shot or the camo modifier? That works best to root them out directly, and a sniffer/sensor works best to reveal them for shooting with someone else. Please also note that Mines kick arse against enemy skirmishers, and are definitely worth giving a go.

    All of these things are also good against pretty much everyone, so they aren't totally unbalancing your list.
     
  8. emperorsaistone

    emperorsaistone Well-Known Member

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    He wants to play 1 CG Lists...
     
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  9. daszul

    daszul Well-Known Member

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    A Rafiq will help a lot.
    With Sniffer and Sensor you can reveal even Hidden Deployment on 19s.

    Yeah, that will be 1/10th of the list,
    but at least it is quite fast and a specialist as well.
    So it might be able to reveal a path for your attack team.
     
  10. ik3rian

    ik3rian Anti-Ariadnian Specialist

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    Well, LI is the only format i can play right now, my schedule is too tight. And i just felt like playing HB this:
    Hassassin Bahram
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    [​IMG]10
    GOVAD HMG / Breaker Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 29)
    GOVAD Missile Launcher, Light Shotgun / Breaker Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 30)
    GOVAD Hacker (Hacking Device) Boarding Shotgun / Breaker Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 28)
    GOVAD (Number 2) Rifle + Light Shotgun / Breaker Pistol, Knife. (0 | 22)
    GOVAD Lieutenant Rifle + Light Shotgun / Breaker Pistol, Knife. (0 | 21)
    FIDAY Rifle + Light Shotgun, Antipersonnel Mines, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, AP CCW, Knife. (0 | 31)
    FIDAY Boarding Shotgun, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, AP CCW, Knife. (0 | 29)
    RAGIK Spitfire / Pistol, CCW. (1.5 | 32)
    ÁYYĀR (Surprise Shot L2) Shock Marksman Rifle / 2 Viral Pistols, CCW, Knife. (0 | 39)
    ÁYYĀR (Surprise Shot L2) Shock Marksman Rifle / 2 Viral Pistols, CCW, Knife. (0 | 39)

    5 SWC | 300 Points

    Open in Infinity Army


    One Fiday can take down the designated target, second one with mines can contest the OPFOR antenna, Ayyars can hold the closer antennas well, and Govads can contest the middle one - in case of FUBAR, there's Ragik. I can see it working well in my mind, the only major minus there that i can see is lack of medic.

    And i'm afraid of facing anything that looks like fireteam of Tankhunters+VetKazaks, antipode Streloks and Spetsnaz.

    Of course i'll prolly look for the Qapu, where i can effectively utilize DJB's and Rafiqs, just really wanted to take a break from them. Also, this mission doesn't require specialists, so that's why we're both allowed to go with the full force attacks.
     
    toadchild likes this.
  11. oldGregg

    oldGregg Well-Known Member

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    Seems to me like you’re pretty set on running this? Give it a shot and let us know how it goes! The most important thing, is to have fun!
     
  12. emperorsaistone

    emperorsaistone Well-Known Member

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    I could offer a few alterations...maybe you would find something that is to your liking.

    Hassassin Bahram
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    [​IMG]10
    GOVAD HMG / Breaker Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 29)
    GOVAD Missile Launcher, Light Shotgun / Breaker Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 30)
    GOVAD Hacker (Hacking Device) Boarding Shotgun / Breaker Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 28)
    GOVAD (Number 2) Rifle + Light Shotgun / Breaker Pistol, Knife. (0 | 22)
    GOVAD Lieutenant Rifle + Light Shotgun / Breaker Pistol, Knife. (0 | 21)
    FIDAY Rifle + Light Shotgun, Antipersonnel Mines, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, AP CCW, Knife. (0 | 31)
    FIDAY Boarding Shotgun, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, AP CCW, Knife. (0 | 29)
    RAGIK Rifle + Light Shotgun / Pistol, CCW. (0 | 26)
    ASAWIRA Spitfire, Nanopulser / Pistol, Shock CCW. (2 | 43)
    ASAWIRA Doctor Plus (MediKit) Boarding Shotgun, Nanopulser / Pistol, Shock CCW. (0 | 39)

    5.5 SWC | 298 Points

    Open in Infinity Army

    Here I replaced the Ayyars with Aswiras. Why? Because they are far better for a comparable pricetag, you get a Doctor to go with your shooter and they have Nanopulsers to threaten Camo Markers or in general make your opponent having to make hard decisions, when AROing. And with BTS 9 they are better off against hacking than Ayyars, even with Fairy Dust. Stealth also helps.
    Of course I had to cut SWC elsewhere for that and I figured, the Ragik would be the right spot for that, because a R+LSG is quite good on an AD unit too and often times the Shotgun is much better for clearing out the vicinity of the entry point.

    Hassassin Bahram
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    [​IMG]10
    GOVAD Sniper Rifle / Breaker Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 25)
    GOVAD Missile Launcher, Light Shotgun / Breaker Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 30)
    GOVAD Hacker (Hacking Device) Boarding Shotgun / Breaker Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 28)
    GOVAD (Number 2) Rifle + Light Shotgun / Breaker Pistol, Knife. (0 | 22)
    GOVAD Lieutenant Rifle + Light Shotgun / Breaker Pistol, Knife. (0 | 21)
    FIDAY Rifle + Light Shotgun, Antipersonnel Mines, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, AP CCW, Knife. (0 | 31)
    FIDAY Boarding Shotgun, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, AP CCW, Knife. (0 | 29)
    RAGIK Spitfire / Pistol, CCW. (1.5 | 32)
    ASAWIRA Spitfire, Nanopulser / Pistol, Shock CCW. (2 | 43)
    ASAWIRA Doctor Plus (MediKit) Boarding Shotgun, Nanopulser / Pistol, Shock CCW. (0 | 39)

    6 SWC | 300 Points

    Open in Infinity Army



    Another possibility woud be to make your Govads purely reactive with a Sniper instead of an HMG. Lets you cover more lanes with a dedicatet ARO weapon and the Sniper can be good at the active turn too with B3.

    Hassassin Bahram
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    [​IMG]10
    GOVAD HMG / Breaker Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 29)
    GOVAD Missile Launcher, Light Shotgun / Breaker Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 30)
    GOVAD Hacker (Killer Hacking Device) Boarding Shotgun / Breaker Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 23)
    GOVAD Sniper Rifle / Breaker Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 25)
    GOVAD Lieutenant Rifle + Light Shotgun / Breaker Pistol, Knife. (0 | 21)
    FIDAY Rifle + Light Shotgun, Antipersonnel Mines, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, AP CCW, Knife. (0 | 31)
    AL-DJABEL Rifle + Light Shotgun, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, Viral CCW, Knife. (0 | 35)
    FARZAN (Minelayer) Boarding Shotgun, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 23)
    ASAWIRA Spitfire, Nanopulser / Pistol, Shock CCW. (2 | 43)
    ASAWIRA Doctor Plus (MediKit) Boarding Shotgun, Nanopulser / Pistol, Shock CCW. (0 | 39)

    6 SWC | 299 Points

    Open in Infinity Army

    This last one is a bigger departure from your original list and adds in a Farzan Minelayer, because Mines are something that Camo heavy Armies dont like. But be aware of Minesweepers. Alternatively you could use a Muyib Minelayer who has the added benefit to be able to join an Asawira Haris and bring more Mines to the table. You just have to find an additional point to spare...
    And with more points available why not take Al Djabel instead of a regular Fiday...he is so much better at killing.
    Also changed the Hacker to a Killer Hacker, so you can threaten your opponents ones better.


    Maybe I could give you some ideas with these lists. Let us know how it went, especially if it was TAK.
     
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  13. ambisinister

    ambisinister Broken Zoetrope

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    As someone who plays against Ariadna very often, I can't sing the praises of Gazzi and Naffatun enough. They're both phenomenal at dealing putting camo in a bad. That being said, if you're playing LI Bahram, I can see why they're not as appealing options (or even available in the case of the Naffatun). So if your opponent is also playing LI and you're going to be seeing 20+ camo tokens, that means you're looking at a lot of ambush camo. In fact that means it's mostly ambush camo. So hopefully that's the case, because if you're bringing LI Haqq against non LI TAK that's going to be rough. Anyway, the thing with ambush camo, is that the decoys all go away when main model is revealed. Since TAK doesn't have MSV2 I've had good luck on turn one using smoke to cover movement from potential camo threats while I move to improve my board position. Then when my opponent wants to get stuff done or respond to my positioning, he ends up losing a lot of the decoys as his troop begin to work. While it doesn't change the fact that the main troops still have camo, at least you're no longer wasting orders on discovering decoys.
     
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  14. ik3rian

    ik3rian Anti-Ariadnian Specialist

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    Those are amazing variants, thank you.
    Thing is, this scenario begs for two units in the back, that can occupy the two antennas at all time, and prefferably units that costs more than Soetsnaz AD (which is one of the best Ariadnian option for going balls deep into enemy DZ). In my list, Ayyars are the backfielders, and Asawiras would be underutilized there, i think. Also, two holoechoes grants more survivability there in case of not having too much of the cover around the antennas.

    There also a way of swithing it into this:
    [​IMG] Hassassin Bahram──────────────────────────────────────────────────[​IMG]10 [​IMG] HASSASSIN HUSAM YASBIR (Infiltration, Holoprojector L2) Rifle + Light Shotgun, Nanopulser, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, Viral CCW, Knife. (0 | 34)[​IMG] GOVAD Missile Launcher, Light Shotgun / Breaker Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 30)[​IMG] GOVAD Sniper Rifle / Breaker Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 25)[​IMG] GOVAD Hacker (Hacking Device) Boarding Shotgun / Breaker Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 28)[​IMG] FARZAN (Minelayer) Boarding Shotgun, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 23)[​IMG] FARZAN (Minelayer) Boarding Shotgun, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 23)[​IMG] FIDAY Rifle + Light Shotgun, Antipersonnel Mines, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, AP CCW, Knife. (0 | 31)[​IMG] ASAWIRA Doctor Plus (MediKit) Boarding Shotgun, Nanopulser / Pistol, Shock CCW. (0 | 39)[​IMG] ASAWIRA (Fireteam: Haris) Spitfire, Nanopulser / Pistol, Shock CCW. (2 | 44)[​IMG] MUYIB Lieutenant Rifle + Light Grenade Launcher (Normal and Smoke Ammo.) / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 23) 6 SWC | 300 PointsOpen in Infinity Army

    Where Govads hold the one antenna, Fidays gets the HVT, Farzans are heavily contesting the middle ZO, Yasibir tries to unmask people with Echoes and nanopulser and Asawiras go for the enemy DZ.
     
  15. theGricks

    theGricks Well-Known Member

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    The Issue is TAK will have a hard time doing camo spam AND LI. Camo spam does best with unit spam even in TAK. He could max out Tank hunters and Spetznaz....but in the reactive turn it will fold like a wet paper bag.

    Are you BOTH playing LI, or just you? If just you, for what purpose? If he is not doing LI, then really your going to have a very difficult time, as some of the best anti-camo units in the game are in HAQQ, but rely on numbers.

    This list relies on templates. Use the Minelayers to mine up the board. You know where all units are as they have no TO, so get mines put down to force TAK to deal with them (they have no great answers). Use the Asawira as the primary assault vector. Using the Wip 14 to discover and dropping Nanopulsars (BTS murders TAK) will do a number to them.

    Hassassin Bahram
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────
    [​IMG]10
    FARZAN (Minelayer) Boarding Shotgun, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 23)
    FARZAN (Minelayer) Boarding Shotgun, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 23)
    GOVAD HMG / Breaker Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 29)
    GOVAD Lieutenant Rifle + Light Shotgun / Breaker Pistol, Knife. (0 | 21)
    GOVAD Sniper Rifle / Breaker Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 25)
    GOVAD Missile Launcher, Light Shotgun / Breaker Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 30)
    GOVAD Hacker (Killer Hacking Device) Boarding Shotgun / Breaker Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 23)
    AVICENNA Combi Rifle, Flash Pulse / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 27)
    NASMAT Electric Pulse. (0 | 3)
    NASMAT Electric Pulse. (0 | 3)
    ASAWIRA Spitfire, Nanopulser / Pistol, Shock CCW. (2 | 43)
    ASAWIRA Doctor Plus (MediKit) AP Rifle + Light Shotgun, Nanopulser / Pistol, Shock CCW. (0 | 45)
    6 SWC | 295 Points
    Open in Infinity Army
     
  16. ik3rian

    ik3rian Anti-Ariadnian Specialist

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    Ah, we are both playing LI, i'm not THAT mad. I think i confused a lot of people with "20+ camo markers" by that i meant spam of ambush camo, antipodes and linked Tankhunters. I am pretty sure he wont pass on the wildcard Veteran wildcards tho. And i know how much of the hassle BTS for Ariadna is, no worries.
    Hacker can be really useful with Spotlight,
    I am also really sold on using Fiday DT for those 2 objective points very early, but maybeusing Lasiqs in SF on my backline is the good way of defending my antennas? Thimg is, trying to fit them with Fiday, two Farzans leaves me either one 5 man without doc, or lots of unspend swc.
    Also i dont own Avicenna and i am not really into proxying distinct pieces.

    This tread turn into a nice mental excercise.
     
  17. ambisinister

    ambisinister Broken Zoetrope

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    You've mentioned this twice now and I'm not sure what you mean. To the best of my knowledge Tankhunters can't join fire teams.
     
  18. ik3rian

    ik3rian Anti-Ariadnian Specialist

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    Yeah, my bad, i had Frontoviks on my mind, those guys with CH:Mimetism. Sorry for the confusion.
     
  19. theGricks

    theGricks Well-Known Member

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    If he is doing LI as well I do not think you will see much more than a few camo tokens. Camo units are not particularly expensive so he will have to spend the points on the higher priced mimitism units or big units like Vet Kazaks. Govads are still a good options, but I would deffinitly suggest a haris of Asawira. My single asawira has made short work of TAK before. Further, sniper rifles and MML2 upgraded TR bots are exceptionaly good. The enemy has some beefy guys, but Vet Kazaks are only a single wound and NWI.
     
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  20. Barrogh

    Barrogh Well-Known Member

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    I mean, when you have streloks that bring three markers each, "few" can quickly become a rather relative term.
     
    theGricks likes this.
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