You do realize they have to be targeted first, right? Or are you just flailing around around trying to refute his point? If there's no chance of your opponent able to actually do something bad to you in retaliation for failing the roll, than no, I would say it's not. There's a reason Speculative Shot has a significant penalty and Guided requires setup with Targeted first. Saying I'm 100% wrong on this doesn't make it so; it's the situations where the opponent can attack someone else's army while risking nothing that are widely regarded as bad gameplay elements (Symbiomates, Jammers). If you want to play a game where certain factions can attack without being retaliated against and others can't, then you want a worse Infinity. Except you can typically shoot back vs. an ADHL. Big difference; it's a face to face roll where the ADHL user is actually putting something on the line. They don't have the Veteran skill. Educate yourself. USARF is one. Plenty of Sectorials. You need the Morat or Veteran skill. The "doesn't contribute regular orders" bit is a red herring, and completely beside the point. Ghazis are ubiquitous in Haqq. He's talking about making it a rare piece of equipment on troops with lower AVA.
I'm really not sure on this. I'll take the fall here and admit I'm making an assumption. That said, why wouldn't it? They sure do, but it's still a thing. Depends on who's turn is active, sure. But there's plenty of things in the game that cause this type of interaction. Have you ever shot a unit in the back? Ever hacked someone? You could have converted the order to achieve a more important goal. Your opponent can jam you back. If this is an ARO, maybe you have to dodge a grenade or missile.Not every interaction = Hecaton wins. But not always. And sometimes you can shoot the unit trying to Jam you. Difference here being you'll be very unlikely to out-range the ADHL unit. EDIT: My Bad Ghazi aren't in QK and are highly unlikely to be in the upcoming RTF. They also rarely appear in any LI events. That's hardly ubiquitous. Are you just flailing around trying to refute at this point?
Because troop classifications are different from skills. And generally regarded as useless outside of niche instances. Better to just shoot the target, since you have to hit them with FO or spotlight first. Shooting a unit in the back generally requires more setup than a simple Jammer, and Hacking has the potential of being hacked back (though not all units are capable of this). Being a Hacker also comes with a specific set of vulnerabilities (i.e. you can be murdered by other Hackers) so it's a tradeoff. Jammers cannot be retaliated against except by other Jammers (and I guess SymbioBombs, but those are disposable). It's a very different situation. Not every army has Jammers, obviously. And you're extremely unlikely to be able to do anything but reset vs. the Jammer unit, and units which are 100+ points aren't 100+ points better at reset than a 5 point model, unlike their capabilities at shooting. Ah yes, those units which are totally not available in USARF. Go figure. I definitely meant in vanilla Haqq. Considering you don't know the difference between troop classification Veteran and the Veteran skill, and don't even appear to have an ITS record, I'd appreciate it if you wouldn't put your opinion on game balance where it doesn't belong.
HA! Got myself there. My mistake :) Nah, you just walk in and start blasting away. Seems good to me. The choice is yours though. Again ... Why not shoot it from a distance? You seem to have avoided this one, which is strange. Do you not have an answer? You're on the internet. Might want to look somewhere else if you don't like other's opinions. The reason I avoid Infinity events is because I don't like being around people like you. I don't need to validate my own existence by by being a self-proclaimed authority either. We're all here because we play Infinity the Game. ITS missions are publicly available so you may play with people you enjoy being around. Does it bother you so much when someone says you're wrong? Will it make you feel better if I tell you you'll always have a better official tournament record then me? If you're such a great player, why do you let yourself get hamstrung by 5-10 point units? Is it because you're wasting orders trying to use the HVT as a meat shield? You don't appear to have any opinions or accolades that I admire. I would appreciate it if you wouldn't put your opinion anywhere. (But I know you will, and it really is okay if you post here. It's the internet).
Just have the Ghazi hide in a building or around a blind corner. Only when they say so without any evidence to back up their claim and expect me to take them seriously.
You have to spend a regular order to allow a Ghazi to just sit anywhere. Ex. Impetuous troops are pretty easy to provoke. Just get your opponent to walk the ghazi into an ARO or waste an order keeping him where he's at. If it stays still, the ghazi has either survived long enough to get to a great position, (which you should have never let happen). Either way, your opponent is now wasiting orders to make this happen, which is value for you. I expect absolutely nothing from you except hot air.
Ah yes, because if you don't kill all if your opponent's Ghazis in ARO before you've even taken a turn you're a bad player...
You may be a bad player, but you don't need to kill them in ARO. Just kill them on your way to objectives in the active turn. Killing them in ARO isn't actually hard though.
That's kind of a big difference. Like, 8" of difference. Which is a lot, because usually it is 8" of spending orders (and possibly also getting shot).
And I'm sure you have all the extensive tournament experience to fall back on to make that statement...
It's so sad when Haqq players defend their broken unit by saying they never use it correctly, so hence it's "easy to counter" :D
Yes. And they, too, are an issue. But not of the same magnitude because of lower AVA and higher cost, meaning the difference between what is reasonable for a Jammer's relative impact and the unit's cost is much smaller. Not in ARO and you still have to get the target in Targeted state. There's a reason you don't see one (or more) Smart Missile Launcher / Smart Multi Sniper in each and every list, because unlike Jammers they are several stage rockets, have a higher and more reasonable cost, and are limited in number of attacks per turn. I'm not arguing that a Ghazi's other weapons are bullshit. I'm arguing that the Ghazi's other weapons are a good loadout and that they would be very useful even without Jammer. In it's current form, it is roughly equivalent of a Hacking Device. A Jammer-equipped profile should cost at least 0.5 SWC and probably have a small price hike. Or a huge price hike if Jammer doesn't impose SWC cost. Not through a wall as ARO and not through Marker state as Entire Order. No they are not. They are veteran troops, not Veterans. ACON, MO, VIRD, YJ, ISS, IA, CHA, MRRF, USARF, Corregidor, Bakunin, Shasvasti, Steel Phalanx, JSA, and Starco. By "Rare" I thought I made it clear that I meant very low AVA as in 1 or 2
On using HVTs as human shields: Yes, you can do that. It is somewhat costly, but it is definitely possible. It is less useful against weapons that have a hit mode, but you could shut down a DTW by walking the HVT over its trigger zone. But you likely can only do that once in the game, as a oponent will get smat about it and nearly everyone has a pistol avaliable for exactly that kind of situation. I do not see it as a big issue, honestly - you will need to be spending orders on something that helps you little, and orders tend to be more precious to winning the game than most individual models. On the point of Jammers: I do think that jammers have issues, no matter what profile they are on. Able to intuitive attack a camo marker at full WIP with no LoS is a problem - it is exactly the same reason why Emily is so maligned when linked - there is simply no counterplay AND the roll is high enough that it passes often. Also, the out of LoS ARO is a problem because, again, full WIP with no counterplay. Both of these happens no matter who is carrying the jammer. Making it Comms equipment ( and hence vulnerable to hacking ) would go a long way to helping those points out because suddenly it *has* a counterplay option. I feel that jammers are actually a problem because every time I pick a Heckler that does not have a jammer I end up regretting it. And pretty much *all* of the Hecklers profiles are otherwise great, so... yeah. On Ghazi: I think Ghazi is one of the two units in Infinity whose profiles are really broken ( the other being posthumans ). The argument is simple, really: Chain Rifle, E/Marat, Dogged, Smoke, Jammer. Remove *any* of those, and you would still bring Ghazi. You can probably remove any TWO of those and they would still be worth bringing to the table. The profile simply does too much. Combi and E/Marat make him effective against *anything* in the game, and the combination of a DTW that you need to dodge and a jammer that you need to reset means he can always put you in a loose/loose situation. Having smoke makes he able to create his own approach, and WIP 15 makes it not really bother him all that much because all of his weapons can intuitive attack. Even walls won't stop the jammer. Then, finally, dogged makes his ridiculously resilient to ARO. And all of that comes for only 5 points. Some of those capabilities ( Jammer and E/Marat) are probably needed in Hassassin? Most likely yes. But the problem is that the profile is just *way* too effective for its cost. Now... why the hell are we discussing Ghazi in a thread about using HVTs as human shields again?
So what would you cost them? Basically all I'm seeing here is that; "Ghazi should cost more because I don't like them. But Hassassins should have them." Again, This amazing profile that 'does too much' can get shot from 16" away with a very poor chance to dodge. Ghazi would be fine in any faction that doesn't auto-convert them to regular orders. You tell me? You seem to have posted more about them than the HVT. (Which we're in agreement on if you read my earlier posts).
Hell no. They'd still be underpriced in Yu Jing and we've got Shaolin. They'd still be underpriced in Nomads and they have Morlocks AND Hecklers. (Also, the reason they'd be extra OP in Pan-O isn't Joan, it's the smoke) Now, this is the reason why I suggested we open up a new thread about it instead of taking it in this thread. It's a hot potato.
Around 12-15 points, at their current state. Can probably drop to around 8-10ish if they loose one of dogged/emarats/jammer/smoke - note that I do not think they should loose jammers. The problem, as I mentioned, is that they just do too much. And in your active turn you can actually smoke the way they will be running in. 15 to smoke dodge is not very poor. Far from it. But that is a general problem with smoke at large. And I do not agree that they would be fine in any other faction. They outstrip any other warband that costs the about same, and they would probably be fielded en-masse anywhere they belonged.
While we're still on that off topic, points isn't the only currency and this is how they solved the Heavy Flamer Grunts from being max-AVA-all-the-time to being more along the lines of a tactical gimmick, with bold marking increases and italic marking (non-existant) decreases: HECKLER Combi Rifle, Jammer, 1 FastPanda / Pistol, Knife. (0,5 | 23) MUTTAWI'AH Chain Rifle, E/Marat, Jammer, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, Knife. (0,5 | 5) MUTTAWI'AH Boarding Shotgun, E/Marat, Jammer, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, Knife. (0,5 | 10) ZULU-COBRA (Sensor) Combi Rifle, Jammer / Assault Pistol, Knife. (0,5 | 29) ZULU-COBRA Lieutenant (Sensor) Combi Rifle, Jammer / Assault Pistol, Knife. (1 | 29) P.s. Morlocks seem to pay full price for their BSG, Domaru seem to pay an extra point for theirs, Kuang Shi seem to get a 1 point discount while Muttas seem to get 2 points discount.
