Nope. It's got obvious flaws. I don't need to step in shit to smell it first. That's how, if your opponent is on the ball with their deployment, your Liu Xing gets shot or immobilised from a concealed AHD. Yeah people like to try and make this argument. Nobody has a good counter argument to the fact that the unit is unable to function in its designed role. Daofei has a marker state, and fights from long range and doesn't have gear and rules that wants him to get to point blank with the enemy. Zencha has a marker state Hulang operates in the midfield and has stealth Combat Jump hackers are pretty unpopular for the exact same reasons as the Liu Xing, and if you take them their job is generally not to attack the enemy but to make a surprise play on a button pushing mission on turn 3. Sure, but I don't judge units based on opponents (or me) making unforced errors. And that comes back to "you're gambling that you constantly get to run into people with no hacking presence at the same time on a mission that favours the particular list you've written, which is wishful thinking at best." to make use of a not inexpensive combat oriented unit. What you're suggesting there is list building failure and has nothing to do with selecting a correct list. If you build a list with hackable elements, you should have appropriate hacking counter measures built in as support. If you build a list with a blatant LT, you should have CoC to offset it and you should have disposable WB troops to build the Wallace style castle for deployment if necessary. That's not a case of needing to sort out some Warmachine style list chicken, that's just you need to go back to list building 101 and sort your stuff out. This one, in my opinion, is not an archetype you need to build for. An average list should be able to handle this the same way Ariadna approaches hacking. Solve it with bullets and violence instead. Midfield skirmishing specialists stop being midfield skirmishing specialists when you kill them. I have a bigger problem with Foxtrots crit flashpulsing absolutely everything I own than I have ever had with them being able to sneak past an army and press buttons.
The Liu Xing functions perfectly well in its intended role, and a few more besides. While it is theoretically very easy to counter with hacking, in practice I find that there are almost always gaps in repeater coverage somewhere useful. And it is perfect for every situation that you wouldn't use a Tiger for. So far I am enjoying the units and variety within the IA sectorial, but struggling to build a list without a full aggressive Core thanks to the distribution of TA profiles and I intensely dislike moving large links up the board- slows the game down to a crawl. Sadly my experience is mostly on paper, thanks to scheduling problems I've gotten two games with IA since release. Special note is the Hulang, which I have found is a blast to play in my limited game time. Ton of equipment for all situations, can take a hit, can play stealthily and complete objectives. I see few circumstances where I wouldn't want one just for the fun of sneaking up the board and cutting down key pieces.
How? Tigers hate DTWs and long-range AROs. Does a good Warband screen, numerous mines or well-placed long range AROs somehow qualify as bad play now? Well, guess I'll keep my Morlocks away from the board edges, pack away the Minelayer and try to win as Bakunin without board control. Because board control is a mistake. Apparently. Or is this about the Hacking? In my experience, people do have enough Repeaters on field to cover their DZ. This is true. However, most of these repeaters are attached to REMs with valuable mid-range weaponry on a cheapish platform. This leads my opponents to put them towards the front of the DZ more often than not, to make best use of AROs or to save orders when making an active turn charge. As a result, there is often a gap near the back of the DZ that can be exploited. There may be more, though this is dependant on terrain. Which brings me back to the topic: Liu Xing rampages through said backline vulnerabilities are very satisfying, and a high point of playing the faction. I recommend everyone try it at least once. No matter how good or bad it should be on paper, it's thoroughly enjoyable coming onto the board in an unexpected position and messing up the opponent's plan by gutting support elements instead of taking out the elite gunfighters.
Baggagebots have repeaters, too, you know, and those generally aren't pushing up the table. In fact, go set up a table with one basic S2 hacker, and two 8pt REMs (baggagebot, 6-6 repeaterbot, or both). Set all three models so their centerpoint is 6" up from the back edge of the table. Hacker goes dead center in the DZ, REMs go ~6" in from the side table edges. Now measure out the Hacking area of those three models that basically aren't going to move for most of the game. Yes, murdering your way through a bunch of mooks is satisfying. Incredibly satisfying, in fact. It's not as easy as you are making it sound.
No, the not protecting their landing zones with the repeaters is the unforced error. Remember the Liu Xing still gives a shit about the normal ARO pieces such as Flash Pulses, defensive link teams etc much the same as other AD troops do not drop into that shit either. Just like them it's looking for attack vectors that are close range out of LOF, drop behind a building then come round the corner and shotgun blast people etc. The problem it walks into is that its threat vectors also include models that no longer require LOF and is pushed out by commonplace repeater equipment. Show up to your average NCA or QK player and they'll have 3 Flash pulse bots and 2 Baggage bots just as cheap order filler spam and that's before you start asking if they have combat or Sensor remotes as well. We're no different, your average list will feature Chaiyi and Pangos to fill out order groups. A Chaiyi, 2 Pango, and Rui Shi with a Zanshi HD backing him means 4 repeaters+1 Hacking zone and all they were doing was showing up to provide orders and buff a Rui Shi, it's not like this is Infowar central with Nomads we're talking about here. If you play nothing but limited insertion, it would probably be why you think there are big gaps in Repeater networks because LI lists tend to not bring so much in the way of order fillers. But when you walk outside of that you'll find pretty much everyone is running double flash pulse double baggage bots and the like just to inflate order pools with cheap orders. When most people are running 13+ orders you'll find that basically everyone who can will have 3+ filler support bots that all have repeaters. Yes, yes it is. The point is your opponent is supposed to take steps to make that difficult. If they know you can potentially drop a Liu Xing into their backlines, they should do something to prevent it from happening. To do otherwise is a failure on their behalf more than any real endorsement of the Liu Xing. I just wanted to go back to that for a sec. Putting aside the fact that your opponent should be deploying in such a way to punish any attempt to drop directly on top of a visible hacker. IA in general is actually probably one of the least hack vulnerable armies. Less so than Vanilla anyway. The ability to pair a KHD with Tinbot B makes actually setting up a solid hacking defense or actively seeking and attacking the bulk of IA a fairly dangerous prospect. The Liu Xing is an outlier in all of this because it operates too far ahead of an army that can't provide long distance repeater support.
I would prefer to see smth like this instead of Shang Ji. At least it would show why they are not only supposed to be superior to Zuyongs but also planned to replace them.
It's an interesting take to give them Martial Arts. I do think that lowering CC at the same time as granting MA1 is less optimal as you'd like to have them somewhat invested in being competent. I don't think the points add up considering the price of Tinbot and MA, but that is less consequential to the discussion as the most important thing is to have Shang-Ji break free from direct comparisons to Zuyong - cost is after all only the most important concern when they are direct upgrades to Zuyong, and currently they are direct, small, upgrade to Zuyong. Stealth of Martial Arts is the important feature here, but it is less useable in fireteams which is Shang-Ji's sectorial job, which has me somewhat concerned that this fix would be toothless. Minor note is that BTS goes in steps of 3, so 4 isn't possible.
I'd like to see Shang Ji fill specialized close action roles. Let the Zuyong have his 16-32 range bands, and give the Shang Ji the closer range weapons. SMGs, flamethrowers, shotguns, grenades. Make them the superior point man who loves showing up Zuyongs.
My modus operandi with the Liu Xing so far goes like this: 1) Check if there's any repeater and hacker that could annoy him 1bis) Send a haidao khd and a tinbot pal in the nearest repeater to brain murder said hackers 2) Take my phone and start ACDC's "Shoot to thrill" 3) Almost forget that i need to use the secure landing supportware with my Daoying. 3) Pick a sweet landing spot, not too agressive but just enough to send a clear message to my opponent. 4) Fumble the PH roll, disperse outside the table and deploy him in my DZ where he'll be a useless but glorious cheerleading brick. 5) Spend the rest of my orders on my zuyong core team. Since I already had them walk all the way up to a repeater to let the KHD do his space magic stuff I might as well keep going. 6) Debrief the game, and ask myself if it's worth spending 30+ points just to have an excuse to blast ACDC while playing (note: it is). 7) Repeat next game.
Taking into account cost of MA3 for Spec Ops it might be possible to add even that level, thus making Shangs good enough melee combatants (for non-melee-specialists ofc) with de-facto CC18 and penalty for opponents, but I am not sure. Anyway, costs would be manageable, I suppose. And getting Stealth and V:Courage is not bad (and we have to consider vanilla as well). But now we have what we have – the good sectorial with new interesting mechanics, but one doubtful quality HI unit and the only profile of AD worth taking.
XP and points share no correlation. Just look at Multi Sniper and HMG costs which in points the Sniper is same price but higher SWC yet HMG is more expensive in XP (I think... weapons list isn't working on mobile browser Army). I haven't tried to break MA1 down but I think it's in the same region as Mimetism and Tinbot B (3 points... maybe MA is slightly cheaper). It's definitely worth considering that IA is missing (using this word deliberately since we're talking about Yu Jing) a melee unit for their fireteams. Having Shang-Ji be that unit would make some sort of comforting symmetry, but I do think that they ought to have the same armour as Tai Sheng instead of their current one, simply because that extra ARM is kind of expensive and it would make sense if they shared armour type as she's the posterboy for the sectorial and having been granted access to the superior armour makes sense.
This is something that is definitely true. I have no major attachment to Shang Ji having ARM4, or even the suggestion of Deflector natively and Kinematica L2 that I had made to kinda get the Shang Ji back to what advantages they had over older armor in N2 (effectively ODD against hacking attacks and higher movement in some situations). I would totally be OK with Tai Sheng wearing 'superior' armor, and the Shang Ji having that same statline with different weapons. I will add that CC17 is almost high enough to be useful, particularly if you gave MA skills. Though the other idea is to make Shang Ji the same as Crane Agents, though perhaps without all the CC skills (CC19, no MA). Would be spendy, but actually useful.
CC17/18 is good enough if you factor in potential fireteam bonuses. I need to make a list for Highly classified for the french satellite, and i'm considering relying on Tai Sheng and/or a Shang-jì + a few zuyong if "predator" pops. With this in mind, Heavy pistol and shock CCW are kinda nice too, one good hit and anything non-HI goes down for good. The hac tao is also a potential candidate for the job.
You could also attempt to flash pulse them on the way in with tai sheng then punch them to death to get predator
I like your style! :D Of course, the way to avoid fumbling that roll is to make more of them... Brute Force ────────────────────────────────────────────────── 10 LIÚ XĪNG Boarding Shotgun / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 32) LIÚ XĪNG Spitfire / Pistol, CC Weapon. (2 | 39) LIÚ XĪNG (Specialist Operative) MULTI Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 38) LIÚ XĪNG Hacker (Assault Hacking Device) Boarding Shotgun / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0.5 | 38) GŪIJIĂ MULTI HMG, Heavy Flamethrower / AP CCW. (2 | 88) GŪIJIĂ PILOT Light Flamethrower / Pistol, Knife. () SON-BAE Yaókòng Missile Launcher / Electric Pulse. (1.5 | 17) ZHANSHI Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 11) ZHANSHI Lieutenant Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 11) ZHANSHI (Forward Observer) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 12) ZHANSHI (Forward Observer) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 12) 6 SWC | 298 Points Open in Infinity Army I've played this list or a variation with HMG Zhanshi in place of Missilebot a handful of times. It's unbeatable...at having fun! :D
Can I suggest that there might be a better way to voice your discontent? A suggestion as to how you think those units could be improved by minor alterations would probably go a lot further than an entirely negative comment. For example: you could say that the Guija needed a lowered SWC cost, or that it needed a Fireteam:Duo option with something else to make it easier to drag some kind of specialist up the field (as Starco and Druze both have). This is likely to get more attention than just focusing entirely on the fact the unit is insufficient as is.
We have been trying that since N3 came out (in the case of the Shang Ji). It has gotten exactly nowhere. Lesson learned: if being polite is ineffective, stop being polite.
