1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Is the game getting too complex?

Discussion in 'Access Guide to the Human Sphere' started by Space Ranger, Oct 30, 2018.

  1. Mruczyslaw

    Mruczyslaw AROnaut

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2017
    Messages:
    898
    Likes Received:
    884
    Nothing says progress as much as replacing good rule with bad one!
     
    Wolf likes this.
  2. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2018
    Messages:
    5,931
    Likes Received:
    5,079
    I don't think of either as bad, not great, but not bad. They add flavor to a game. I like a story to go with the game and they don't over complicate the mission if it's just one of the two. Both however does.
     
  3. ik3rian

    ik3rian Anti-Ariadnian Specialist

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2018
    Messages:
    180
    Likes Received:
    119
    20x20 is an amazing and fun way of playing Infinity.

    I tought that nothing more in this thread could catch my eye, but someone mention shriking playerbase. I dont think it is shrinking, but i feel that it is slowing down a little?
    I know few veterans that stepped out of playing the game because of various mechanic-related inconsistiencies. Maybe it is really that hard to come up with solutions that wont make everyone happy even tho people are free to play the game however they want, i don't know. If you can dig a hole in rules deep enough to reach the answer "it is not clear if it works way A or way B" then those cases, in a perfect world, should be the first priority.
    I always tought that word is a biggest marketing channel for Infinity, but after teliing someone that setup is cool, minis are dope and overall format of the game is fun, i have to say that rules are a little bit clunky and in the end it doesnt make it a best of opinions.
    Dialogue with CB is way more complex than the game itself, i think.
     
    Berjiz, Nenyx, Wolf and 1 other person like this.
  4. csjarrat

    csjarrat Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2017
    Messages:
    1,741
    Likes Received:
    1,844
    It is getting to a point of bloat and complexity that is gonna make it more and more of a hard-sell. None of the casuals I got into it in the early days are still playing and the new generation are all playing kill team and guildball. They're better candidates for aristeia than infinity. The level of complexity really narrows the target market a lot. If it's gonna grow biggerbigger, n4 needs a good streamlining to draw in a different market. I'm happy enough with it remaining a complex game but after being a player since early n2, I would kill for a lighter ruleset now I've got two kids and don't play as mich, even as a warcor I get rusty if I don't get regular games in
     
    Berjiz, coleslaw, inane.imp and 5 others like this.
  5. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2018
    Messages:
    6,040
    Likes Received:
    7,177
    This ^. The aim should absolutely be deep tactical decisions, streamlined rules.

    Once they've finished this wave of expansion they really need to do a wave of polishing.
     
    Mahtamori, Hecaton and BLOODGOD like this.
  6. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    7,205
    Likes Received:
    6,535
    Yeah but it would have at least made sense to have the Datatracker replaced with the new season's "theme" (since the last season was all about hunting that data). As it stands we have the worst of both worlds - a new, clunky rule that needed multiple FAQ revisions to even function properly, and the old rule still extent in some scenarios, sometimes alongside the new Xenotech rule! And, on top of that, the rules don't even do the same thing in every mission - the Datatracker sometimes has an extra order, sometimes not, the Xenotech sometimes scores extra points, sometimes not.

    It's kind of darkly humorous that the scoring for some missions is so convoluted that they can't even fit points for placing the scanner down, so instead gave players a points penalty if they didn't. Fast forward five more seasons and we'll have five more clunky rules elements shoved into missions all willy-nilly.
     
    Berjiz and Space Ranger like this.
  7. Mruczyslaw

    Mruczyslaw AROnaut

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2017
    Messages:
    898
    Likes Received:
    884
    Haha, true!
    As datatracker doesnt works in some scenarios (hello Decapitation), it is still better than Xenotech invented week before FAQ on interplanetario with some strong drinks invlolved:D But You are right, one theme rule in season is enough.
    Shame Hellois doesnt see it.
    #rakcham
     
  8. barakiel

    barakiel Echo Bravo Master Sergeant

    Joined:
    May 5, 2017
    Messages:
    2,299
    Likes Received:
    7,519
    When the Original Campaign Paradiso came out, one of the challenges was the extreme complexity of the missions. Many were more complex that current ITS mission, and had more rigid demands (example: only an Engineer could accomplish a given objective... Or only a Hacker... Rather than the current broad definition of Specialist.)

    The result was that it was very, very difficult for any group to sink their teeth into it. Even very savvy groups willing to deep-dive into the rules struggled to really enjoy the missions. Casual or small groups doubly so... It was very hard to find anything rewarding in the strict demands of the missions.

    ITSX isn't quite at that point, but it's getting close. I play a lot of Infinity, and for the life of me, I can't remember if a given mission has Datatracker, no Datatracker, and what rules or role the Datatracker needs to observe for that mission. Ditto Xenotech. And I play, on average, 3 ITS missions a week. The granular complexity is getting rough.
     
    Berjiz, BLOODGOD, Section9 and 4 others like this.
  9. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    12,018
    Likes Received:
    15,302
    With all that said about ITSX, let me just leave this here: Frostbyte has become a local favourite. Interesting interactions, optional objectives, promoting sturdy solo models as Datatracker, and a bit of a red herring trying to kill your opponent through freezing.
     
    barakiel likes this.
  10. barakiel

    barakiel Echo Bravo Master Sergeant

    Joined:
    May 5, 2017
    Messages:
    2,299
    Likes Received:
    7,519
    Yeah, there's definitely good stuff in recent seasons too. Unmasking, Frostbyte, these are good missions. And I do think Datatracker has created some interesting list building dynamics and single-unit focus, which is actually positive.
     
    Mahtamori and A Mão Esquerda like this.
  11. Mruczyslaw

    Mruczyslaw AROnaut

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2017
    Messages:
    898
    Likes Received:
    884
    Datatracker is interesting concept.
    Yet we can see its execution in for example Decapitation... Even worse than Xenotech:) Unchanged for years... GJ Hellois;)
     
  12. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2018
    Messages:
    6,040
    Likes Received:
    7,177
    I like Datatrackers in Decap, it makes for interesting list building. I don't like Decap's scoring as it's too first turn heavy.

    Even a simple change makes it more palletable:
    2 OP for killing the Designated Target
    +2 OP for killing the Designated Target with your Datatracker
    1 OP for killing any number of your opponent's LTs
    +2 OP for killing the same number of Lts as your opponent
    +3 OP for killing more Lts than your opponent
    2 OP for killing more Army points than your opponent
     
    AdmiralJCJF likes this.
  13. Solar

    Solar Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2017
    Messages:
    3,007
    Likes Received:
    5,384
    Honestly I don't think the game is getting worse, I think the game has never been better

    I think the community here is getting worse though. There are a lot of people on these boards who are angry at stats, rules, army choices etc. And it's a nightmare to talk to them about it because they consider it their right to be an arse about it due to their indignant rage.

    Really it would be cool if more people were considerate of how a community is the sum of it's parts, and a friendly, welcoming, energetic community is made up of friendly, welcoming and energetic people. A lot of people here just don't want to be that. And it sucks and makes things worse for everything else.
     
    chaos11, Berjiz, saint and 9 others like this.
  14. Barrogh

    Barrogh Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2017
    Messages:
    2,062
    Likes Received:
    1,791
    If they will ever get to this streamlining, I just hope it won't be done by removing fun stuff units can do besides deploying in DZ and shooting while walking forward towards objective. Because apparently certain other company is on the rise after they did exactly that to their main game.

    *Insert insult of choice here*
    :P
     
    AdmiralJCJF and A Mão Esquerda like this.
  15. Regnator

    Regnator Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2018
    Messages:
    76
    Likes Received:
    61
    I'm the one who said the player base might be shrinking. However i don't have any number so take it with a grain of salt. I just assumed that since 40k is eating market share from games like warmachine and malifaux, it could be the same with infinity. on the other hand infinity is a niche game and provide something unique so it's player base might be less affected.
    About the community, i do not agree with solar. I'm not saying everything is perfect, some people really should revise their manners, but it's the same everywhere, and IRL from my experiences the community was welcoming and eager to share their passion for the game. Of course on the internet some people forget that there are real people behind their screens and that a debate is made to reach an understanding about a subject and not to impose a point of view.

    Envoyé de mon LG-H815 en utilisant Tapatalk
     
    Mruczyslaw likes this.
  16. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2017
    Messages:
    1,803
    Likes Received:
    2,804
    It does the opposite for quite a few sectorials. In JSA, for example, it's basically "go first and land an Oniwaban, if so, you win".
     
  17. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    7,205
    Likes Received:
    6,535
    Impersonators too.

    @Solar the people I interact with in person in this community are largely fun and welcoming. Growing the community is hard with the current state of the rules though.
     
    theradrussian likes this.
  18. barakiel

    barakiel Echo Bravo Master Sergeant

    Joined:
    May 5, 2017
    Messages:
    2,299
    Likes Received:
    7,519
    Infinity has a lot in common with roleplaying systems.

    The challenge is front-loaded. It's hard to break into, because of the wealth of rules. So as a result, community is really important for the game's success. Imagine trying to learn D&D only by reading the rulebook, vs learning D&D by sitting down with a welcoming group and reading the rulebook, and having them show you.

    Once you break into it though, I think the depth is really appealing. New rules are also very easy to assimilate and incorporate, because everything is fundamentally similar.

    "Oh, a Wild Parrot is basically a combination of two existing pieces of equipment. Simple enough."

    "Hey, this new character is basically just a Myrmidon. Those have been around forever, I know what they do."

    But there's a lot of hand-holding required to bring new players into the game, and bring them up to the level where they can glance at a unit and know intuitively what it does and how it's intended to function.
     
    Berjiz, Barrogh, toadchild and 9 others like this.
  19. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2018
    Messages:
    6,040
    Likes Received:
    7,177
    Sure. Which is an issue because of just how many points you get for the DT killing the Designated Target. Reduce that even a little and that play now becomes "I just traded a 40+ pt assassination piece for 4 OP in a mission where the ability to kill Lts and kill more Army points matters more".

    So instead you start looking at things like Shikami, which make good DTs whether going first or second, and preserving your Oniwaban for an Lt assassination play.

    One of the other scoring systems to Decap I was considering was.
    2 OP kill the Designated Target
    +1 OP kill the Designated Target with your DT
    1 OP kill your opponent's Datatracker
    1 OP kill any number of your opponent's LTs
    +2 OP kill the same number of LTs as your opponent
    +3 OP kill more LTs than your opponent
    2 OP kill more Army points than your opponent

    Which directly impacts the play you're talking about. It still means Decap is a mission that flavours going first, but even in a scenario where you lose both your Datatracker and Designated Target turn one, you're only down 4 OP with 9 still up for grabs. This means that you can still major, whereas right now the best you can hope for is 5/7.

    I'm not saying that Decap is in a good place right now. I'm saying that the issue is the scoring is borked, not the concept of having a Datatracker in it.
     
    oldGregg likes this.
  20. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2017
    Messages:
    6,148
    Likes Received:
    9,666
    Yeah, the original Paradiso missions were a nightmare.
     
  • About Us

    We are a company founded in 2001 in Cangas (Spain), and devoted to design and manufacture games and figures. Our main product, Infinity the Game, was born with the ambition to satisfy the most demanding audience, offering the best quality.

     

    Why are we here?

     

    Because we are, first and foremost, players.

  • Quick Navigation

    Open the Quick Navigation