So, can we get a collection going for @ijw 's adult-beverage-of-choice fund to ... ah, 'move things up in the queue'?
Why hasn't it been looked at? Infinity is CB's moneymaker. Least they could do is back up their rules.
I can't get behind @ijw 's interpretation. To my understanding it's: Even if the servant bot was already in base contact (since the bot wouldn't be able to move towards the Engineer due to G: Servant & Immobilized state restrictions) there is still the Immobilized state itself that forbids the Engineer to declare the Engineer skill at all - contrary to a normal situation where the Engineer can declare it and automatically performs an Idle since the requirements are not met.
Just to clarify my position: Background-wise, I think it's dodgy, and I wanted it to be the Engineer performing the Skill not just a mention of the Engineer being the one rolling. Rules-wise, it's a non-issue. Unlike N2, you do not declare Skills with the Controller which the Servant then copies - instead, you declare Skills with both troopers at once: The Doctor/Engineer and the G: Servant trooper must declare the same Order, declaring the same Short Skills of the Order. However, it is not compulsory that they have the same target. Emphasis not added. You must be able to declare Skills that can't be declared by both troopers, or you wouldn't be able to declare Engineer without the controller being in base contact (defeating the entire purpose of G: Servant), or Discover (or BS Attack etc. etc.) if one of the two troopers can't see any enemies, or CC Attack if one of the troopers isn't in base contact with an enemy. This is the same situation as a Coordinated Order - in effect, the Requirements of the Skills being declared only have to apply to one of the troopers involved, so that you can declare BS Attack without all the troopers being able to see the target, and then the ones who didn't fulfil the Requirements Idle on Resolution. See http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Coordinated_Orders#Coordinated_Order_example:_Failed_activation
Just focusing on the bullet points relevant to declaring the order, these are the bullet points from G:Servant The Doctor/Engineer and the G: Servant trooper must declare the same Order, declaring the same Short Skills of the Order. However, it is not compulsory that they have the same target. If either trooper is not able to perform the Order (whether the Entire Order or both Short Skills of the Order), then that trooper will perform an Idle, while the other trooper will perform his complete Order normally. If either trooper is not able to perform one of either Short Skills of the Order, then that trooper will perform only the Short Skill he is able to perform, and the other Short Skill will be an Idle. While the other trooper will perform his complete Order normally. These are the bullet points from G:Synchronized The Controller and the G: Synchronized trooper must declare the same Order, declaring the same Short Skills of the Order. However, it is not compulsory that they have the same target. If either trooper is not able to perform the Order (whether the Entire Order or both Short Skills of the Order), then that trooper will perform an Idle, while the other trooper will perform his complete Order normally. If either trooper is not able to perform one of either Short Skills of the Order, then that trooper will perform only the Short Skill he is able to perform, and the other Short Skill will be an Idle. While the other trooper will perform his complete Order normally. Notice the striking similarities in the text. G:Servant doesn't have examples of its use. G:Synchronized does, and of particular interest is Example 2 because it shows the situation in question: Let's see what could happen if the situation was different. The Auxilia Calvin, with his back against the exterior wall of a small building, sends his little Auxbot "Hobbes" towards one of the building's corners while he goes towards the opposite corner. So, the first Short Skill of the Order is declared (Move) activating both figures, who move in different directions. When arriving at the end of his movement, Calvin doesn't see any enemies. Meanwhile, "Hobbes" when arriving at the corner faces two Alguaciles who both declare a BS Attack ARO against the Remote. With the second Short Skill, "Hobbes" declares a BS Attack with its Heavy Flamethrower, placing the Large Teardrop Template over the two Alguaciles. Meanwhile, Calvin declares he will perform a BS Attack too. Although he has no target in LoF, it's required that he declares a BS attack to allow "Hobbes" to perform its BS Attack (see Graphic).
For people who have issue with this rule there's a contradiction, originating from this: This is being interpretted as Doctor/Engineer being activated initially and Servant as an addition. I get what you mean. I get it, but the issue is comming back time and time again and some people just refuse to understand how it works. I would seriously like to see this added into the FAQ to have the issue solved once and for all.
In the interest of collecting forensic data, what happens when these individuals are confronted with the G:Synchronized rules and or the G:Synchronized examples?
I politely suggest that players saying this have a look at IMM state, and point out where it stops the trooper from being activated or having Orders spent on it.
Would like to point out that there are rules that are being super similar and work very unintuitively different. You dodge against a shot through smoke - no penalty, (cuz otherwise smoke+MSV2 is too strong). You dodge against a shot through Low Vis. Zone you get -3 mod. Either way, with all do respect, I took this question here and won;t jump between interrested parties discussing new findings with both sides. I wait untill it gets ultimately resolved and link entire discussion to my group. The argument I encounter is that since you activate an engineer which is IMM-1/IMM-2 there's a limited number of short skills allowed for him to perform. Again, I understand that you activate both Engineer and G:Servant, but the argument is that it is impossible to declare a skill not listed in IMM state as possible. This topic comes back for one and a half year, time and time again. Isn't this what FAQ is supposed to deal with?
However, if the issue isn't the rules text, but rather willful misinterpretation, what would an FAQ change?
Can't say about others but in my opinion rules should be as simple and clear as possible. I mean the way they ar phrased, not simplicity of game engine etc. This rule is not and it generates issues and missinterpretations. In a perfect world you look at a simple rule, that leaves no plase for missinterpretation at first glance, and when you still have problem with it - there's a FAQ that makes it perfectly clear how the rule is intended to be used. Not go through similar rules in search of a precedent and dig through forum posts in search for a proper intepretation.
The issue is, in fact, the rules text. This bit here is hardly clear enough. Saying that the Doctor/Engineer makes the roll implies that they might not be able to do it if they were immobilized etc.
Because of To explain my POV: As you've already stated multiple times Engineer and Bot MUST declare the same set of orders. And to be able to perform something (or do an idle instead) you have to be able to declare it. Therfore if one of both is not able to even declare a skill (and therefore can't be converted into an idle*) then both can't declare that skill. And since the IMM state prevents the Engineer from even declaring certain skills there is no room for still idling and letting the bot still perform the skill. It would be totally unequivocal if the IMM Rule would be written like: "... cannot perform Short Movement Skills..." *From the Wiki for Idle: Ironically Idle seems to be the only skill a Troop can perform athough it didn't declare it ;)
But we know this is false. 1) If you don't meet the requirement then you cannot declare a skill. 2) If you are IMM then you cannot declare a skill. They both result in not being able to declare a skill. And we know servant/synch/etc still work. So it is not a case of "because A cannot do it, then neither can declare it". But a case of "because B can do it, they both can declare it". If 1 can do it everyone can declare it is also how fireteam and coordinated work. In a coordinated move+shoot for example as long as 1 model has LoF, they can all declare Shoot (and drop camo state) even those who don't have LoF to actually shoot. Multiple instance of the game work on that permissive ruleset.
That was covered in the next post: Let's take some standard examples, without anyone being in IMM state. Example 1 A Machinist is hidden in the backfield, while his Palbot is in the combat zone, in base contact with a damaged Cutter. The Machinist is not in base contact with anyone. What is the Requirement to be able to declare Engineer? The user must be in base to base contact with his target. The Machinist does not fulfil this Requirement and there is nothing in the G: Servant text that says this Requirement is over-ruled for the Controller. 'Therfore if one of both is not able to even declare a skill ... then both can't declare that skill' would mean that neither trooper can declare Engineer. Example 2 A combat medic, a Reverend Healer, has advanced up the table while her Zondbot is in the backfield near a Sin-Eater. The Reverend Healer moves into LoF of an enemy trooper that she wishes to shoot with her MULTI Rifle, while the Zondbot has no LoF to any enemy targets. What is the Requirement to be able to declare BS Attack? The user must have LoF towards the target unless the BS Weapon, Special Skill or Equipment used states specifically that it does not require LoF. The Zondbot does not fulfil this Requirement. 'Therfore if one of both is not able to even declare a skill ... then both can't declare that skill' would mean that the Reverend Healer cannot declare BS Attack. Example 3 In case you're going to argue that Skills can be declared without fulfilling the Requirements: The Reverend Healer is on the attack again, but this time she has advanced her Zondbot with her. The Zondbot has moved into base contact with an enemy TAG in a previous Order, locking the TAG and Zondbot in Engaged state. The Reverend Healer wishes to Move into base contact with the TAG, so that she can get Burst 2 in CC with her EXP CCW. Engaged state says: Troopers in Engaged state are considered to be in Close Combat (CC). For this reason, they can only declare CC Attack, Coup de Grâce, Dodge and those Skills which specify that they can be used in CC Combat or in the Engaged state, as Reset. The Zondbot cannot declare Move. 'Therfore if one of both is not able to even declare a skill ... then both can't declare that skill' would mean that the Reverend Healer cannot declare Move. She also wouldn't be able to declare BS Attack, or Doctor, or use her MediKit, even though she isn't Engaged.
