Fair call. But as I said I think the hosp + sergent + wildcard santiago is nearly as easy to fit if you need this 17bs hmg so badly. And very often a 14bs hmg is enough (except against Aleph, damn post humans). And I'm counting more on the magister knight for aro than the HMG. ↑ There is a dilemma in each game. Either turttle and prevent Rambo but get shoot at or turtle and get ramboed. So usually you can either shoot around piece down or Rambo. With all the grey area in between ... And for point 2. : I'll leave my whole army in my DZ if I can. And only rush on turn 2 or 3.That is my way of playing MO. How do you play ? Play first and rush with ft on turn one ? Edit : by no means I say I'm right and you're just fool. I just say there is room for debate wether MO are weak or even weaker than before.
Not only. Lt mess is new thing. Hard downgrade of orders (Fusilier's case) is also a very strong limitation.
Yes. But I quite often play against Regular Sniper, linked Frontovick, Q-Drone etc. Which are quite hard ARO pieces, and even your BS17 HMG can sometimes have a little bit of problems when shooting at aftermentioned units. So we can both agree that it got even bit more difficult for MO to leave DZ as it's best option (linked HMG) just got a bit more expensive+clunkcy/less resiliant ? Things like linked mimetism ARO pieces just got even more popular and MO still doesn't have any visual mods on it's HI, and link is our only way to actually increase our chances. Look at Father Knight. He is now again eclipsed by other unit (Santiago Spitfire) because Santiago is not only cheaper pts/SWC wise but also always bring Specialist, has good (yet situational) E/M grenades, has D-Charges and nice DTW. They only FK profile which benefited from all those changes is ML one as it gives him a reason to exist (unlinked FL ML was abomination), even if his full link costs ~100pts. And yes, there is KotHS, last time I've engaged Frontovick HRL he was shooting on 12 while I was shooting at 11s ^^ (in my good range) Yes, I've played MO this way. My last tournament last game on top table I've played Decap against TAK. Both of us just sended single units to other guy's DZ, while my whole Hosp+Mag link protected Joan. It was strange game, yet full of tactical approach. So if we both agree that leaving your whole army in DZ for almost whole game being vialable and probably one of best strategies (for MO), does it mean CB failed at their sectorial design ? I always thought of MO being a sectorial which loves to fight midfield where all those Spitfires are great, you can occasionally stab someone with all those swords etc. My main point is that in general (imho) MO is weaker. There might be some lists/mission where it is stronger than it was, but in general main MO weaknes is that it leaves absolute zero margin for error. This problem is even more exemplified with a fact that MO actually got 2 of the strongest (if not the strongest) units in PanO roster: Tikbalang and Dart. One is "best" PanO TAG (even if downgraded for MO), second one is "best" assasin Skirmisher. Neither of which actually increase sectorial power (to a level they should or do in different sectorials) mostly due to order and support limitations MO faces. And list building in MO is just a chore, not a nice experience of "I can take this cool tool, and that cool unit, and I take this because its quite good and I love this model". Try to compare your experience of list building while doing list for TAK/NCA/OSS or ASA. 3rd Offenisve changes seems as "extended" band-aid, which while cleaning some MO mess, introduces yet another messy points (BF linkability, FK being still overshadowed by Santiago, specialist Sergeants still being left in cold, Teutons being still obsolete, Crusader Team strange limitations). MO roster just doesn't seem "integrity" like some new factions (while it being a big "legacy" problem).
@eciu all I can do is say well done for writing this all out so clearly. 100% in agreement. If it wasn't for the awesome look of the minis, I'd be very much regretting having bought the MO army box right now...
On the other hand, MO has top notch unhackable skirmishers, and while the crusader brethren gets a lots of hate it's still an unhackable, BS13 unit potentially starting in your opponent's half of the table with an hmg or a spitfire. Those are tools you can (should?) use to help your knights get out of your DZ. I know the rice field is always greener on the other side of the great wall (as it should!) but you have a pretty fancy garden yourself.
Ekhm, TOFOOS has 45% to do nothing against Frontovick, and "only" 40% to actually cause the wound (and this is assuming best range bands for TOFOOS). While "normally" it could be "not terrible odds" we are speaking about single combat group MO, which needs all the order efficiency it can muster. Crusader is quite prohibitive due to his cost. Also TOFOOS got a little less appealing with all those new Sensor units hitting the game :) And if all MO has is banking on single wound units to get out of DZ then... you are already in bad spot :)
The way I see it is I usually have a Haris hospitalier with hmg and dovtor and a core with two Santiago. If needed I can have the Santiago join the hospitalize link for a bs 17 hmg. I really enjoy the change in MO in 3rd offensive. You now have a lot of diferendi tool where before you only had one.
I think that's the main difference in opinion. IMHO MO didn't get tools to solve it's major problems (getting out of DZ, order efficiency) (only hacking weaknes was somewhat addressed with Tinbot KHD profile) while it got some rather quite strong weaknesses (order efficiency, LT case).
Those aren't terrible odds yeah, but you don't even need to attack the HRL head on in the first place. You have a marker state, you can sneak around and target weaker link members. Kazaks often have a strong minefield game though, so dart might be a better fit for the job in this case. It's not about "banking on a unit", it's about options. If you don't want to risk your HMG in a risky face to face with a powerful ARO piece, be it an hospitaller, a tikbalang or a seraph, you have units able to play the sneaky game. It's more order intensive yes, but i'd argue it's better than having 9 orders you can't use because your HMG got crit by a missile launcher... He's 1.5 in MO, like a bunch of their units he has an increased SWC cost in vanilla.
It's priced okay for 13 BS 3 ARM 3 BTS MI combat jumper, but it may feel much considering LT tax and general price of HI units being foundation of sectorial.
MO only has an order efficiency problem compared to IA. If anything the order efficiency has gotten better because of some price drops on Hospitallers, newish Techbee, and auto include KHD. If you're looking for cheap cheerleaders + recommend 2x mulebots + fugazi, who should be effectively "free" since you're going to take the Santiago knight with the KHD anyway. This is in contrast with the previous MO, where you had to work to get a hacker in, and then he often made little contribution. Also we got a small increase for Joan LTs with the addition of the Techbee a bit before the rework. So you can take something like this, and have 7 orders for 121 points, leaving plenty of room for other additions. Military Orders ────────────────────────────────────────────────── 5 2 FUGAZI DRONBOT Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8) MULEBOT (Minesweeper, Repeater) Electric Pulse. (0 | 8) MULEBOT (Minesweeper, Repeater) Electric Pulse. (0 | 8) TECH-BEE (Remote Assistant Level 1, Specialist Operative) Flash Pulse / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5) WARCOR (Aerocam) Flash Pulse / Stun Pistol, Knife. (0 | 3) JOAN OF ARC Lieutenant Spitfire, Nanopulser / Pistol, AP CCW. (1 | 51) KNIGHT OF SANTIAGO Hacker (Killer Hacking Device) Combi Rifle, Nanopulser, D-Charges + 1 TinBot A (Deflector L1) / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 38) 1 SWC | 121 Points Open in Infinity Army Also for best attack piece in PanO please add in the Bulleteer, at AVA 2, in MO.
I hate taking mulebots because they exert 0 board presence outside of area control missions. They're nice for hacking webs, but MO isnt going to be pulling that off.
If able, sure but as Eciu and I have been laying out, there is order crunch in MO. I would rather have lane control and aro presence.
I agree – I don't love the mulebot in MO, but thats not to say they don't have any use. MO is pretty much limited to a single combat group and it kind of throws a monkey wrench into things if one of those precious spots is taken up by what is essentially a non-unit.
No. Previously you could pay 38 pts for Lt, Lt shell and cheapest HD ever. And you have had 3 regular orders to start. Now you have to pay 34 pts (1 SWC) for cheapest Lt, and this still means 1 order.
