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MAF: Polishing the Turd

Discussion in 'Combined Army' started by itsuncertainwho, Dec 1, 2018.

  1. Razi

    Razi Well-Known Member

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    Can you please elaborate on what's wrong with order spam in MAF?

    Personally, I have trouble creating LI lists I'm happy with for two reasons. One, I don't like the Suryat core pain train play style. Two, even with the wonderful addition of wildcard for the Raktorak, specialists are still a huge pain in MAF (B&K are sorely missed). It continues to be the biggest problem I have with MAF. There are no stand out specialists, especially outside a fireteam. There's no AD, camo, or two wound specialist. Zerats with infiltration are nice but they are just so exposed it's hard to count on them.

    I find myself having to bring a number of cheap specialists or count on my fireteam to move up field to get the job done. Choosing ten troopers that include some big hitters, a core and or haris, Lt, plus specialists is difficult. Especially if I want to bring our only surprise in the form of the Rasyat.

    Random question for anyone... Can I make a fireteam core that includes two Raktoraks?
     
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  2. clever handle

    clever handle Well-Known Member

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    yes
     
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  3. DaRedOne

    DaRedOne Morat Warrior Philosopher
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    No. Wildcard only lets you add 1 of that model.

    However, I do think MAF can be very versatile and use many LI AND order spam builds. It really depends on the mission. For example:

    Morat Aggression Force
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    [​IMG]10
    KORNAK Lieutenant Mk12, Light Flamethrower / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 41)
    SURYAT (Tactical Awareness) HMG + TinBot A (Deflector L1) / Pistol, CCW. (2 | 48)
    SURYAT Heavy Rocket Launcher, Light Shotgun / Pistol, CCW. (2 | 39)
    SURYAT MULTI Rifle + Light Flamethrower / Pistol, CCW. (0 | 41)
    RAKTORAK Vulkan Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 22)
    RAKTORAK Combi Rifle + Heavy Flamethrower / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 23)
    MORAT Hacker (EI Hacking Device) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 22)
    MED-TECH OBSIDON MEDCHANOID Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 23)
    SLAVE DRONE Electric Pulse. (0 | 3)
    SLAVE DRONE Electric Pulse. (0 | 3)
    Q-DRONE HMG / Electric Pulse. (1 | 26)
    IKADRON (Baggage, Repeater) 2 Light Flamethrowers, Flash Pulse / Pistol, Electric Pulse. (0 | 9)

    5.5 SWC | 300 Points

    Open in Infinity Army

    Is a list I used for Frostbyte, successfully even. Basically the idea is starting with a 5 monkey team, then breaking into 2 3 monkey teams. It's pretty effective, and has 4 specialists, more than enough to cover some objectives.

    Another cool LI list I have used is:

    Morat Aggression Force
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    [​IMG]10
    RODOK Lieutenant Combi Rifle, 2 Light Shotguns / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 26)
    RODOK HMG / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 27)
    RODOK Hacker (EI Killer Hacking Device) Boarding Shotgun, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 22)
    RODOK Paramedic (MediKit) Boarding Shotgun, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 21)
    RAKTORAK (NCO) Vulkan Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 24)
    MORAT Hacker (EI Hacking Device) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 22)
    MED-TECH OBSIDON MEDCHANOID Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 23)
    SLAVE DRONE Electric Pulse. (0 | 3)
    SLAVE DRONE Electric Pulse. (0 | 3)
    RAICHO MULTI HMG + Heavy Shotgun, Mine Dispenser / . (2 | 94)
    [​IMG] RAICHO PILOT 2 Heavy Pistols, D-Charges, Knife. ()
    Q-DRONE HMG / Electric Pulse. (1 | 26)
    IKADRON (Baggage, Repeater) 2 Light Flamethrowers, Flash Pulse / Pistol, Electric Pulse. (0 | 9)

    5 SWC | 300 Points

    Open in Infinity Army

    Which also has 5 specialists, 6 if you count the raicho pilot, and can throw down really well in some missions. MAF can be surprisingly versatile if you try to build for the mission.
     
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  4. derbrizon

    derbrizon Well-Known Member

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    Nothing is wrong with spam MAF. MAF has some incredible 16+ order compositions that do lots of work and are versatile thanks to hungries and be daturazi. It's now even better and more versatile with things like NCO and tactical awareness.

    Imo mad MAF used to not be super good at LI. Now they're pretty damn strong is say. Equal with their high order count alternatives.
     
  5. derbrizon

    derbrizon Well-Known Member

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    Where is the wildcard limit stated? Some troops specifically state a couple limit. The raktorak clause does not afaik
     
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  6. Razi

    Razi Well-Known Member

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    Thanks. I never considered using Kornak to facilitate breaking a Suryat core into a Haris and 3 man core. It bypasses that really annoying SWC tax on the haris profile and doesn't hamstring that list as much.

    I still feel both lists suffer from weak specialists. Both the hacker and Med-Tech seem 'light' in their usefulness. Supportware is always nice and the Worm is versatile but I don't think either is going to get much work done besides pushing buttons. What I mean is, any orders I spend moving troopers forward need to provide more than just that WIP check to potentially score.

    Luckily Raktoraks, Rodoks, and really any fireteam specialists don't suffer from this issue because they have other tools to use while they advance. At the very least they are afforded protection. I actually consider the Raicho pilot my favorite specialist for those same reasons. It's drawback is it's too prominent and draws a lot of attention.. which can however be useful at times.

    Other factions can AD, camo infiltrate, or send heavily armored multi wound button pushers which make them ultimately much more order efficient. The only way MAF can achieve this is from their fireteams which other factions can also do. I love MAF's diversity in fireteam selection but it's hardly an advantage on the tabletop. We can only choose one core, just like everyone else. It's not like MAFs fireteams are stronger 1v1 than other factions. I find MAF extremely predictable and our specialists suffer from this the most.
     
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  7. DaRedOne

    DaRedOne Morat Warrior Philosopher
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    I don't put the worm or a vanguard Hacker on a list to press buttons. They're there usually to support something that I'll want to keep alive or buff up.

    Notice that AD specialists are order intensive, which isn't something you consider when making LI lists. I'll give you camo infiltrators as something very good at pushing buttons, but the raicho and rodoks can really punish these guys by either laying mines along their possible paths, or just plain butchering them, as very few camo specialists are geared to firefights as well.

    Mission is key. In stuff like The Armory or Frostbyte I feel like I don't need a camoed specialist to win. And if I am going to play a mission that favors camoed specialists, I can load up on Krakots, daturazi and hungries to counter them. Sure, it's not the best solution sometimes, but we work with what we got.
     
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  8. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
    Infinity Rules Staff Warcor

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    MAF has no such limit listed, unlike the wildcards in Invincible Army. So two Raktoraks in a Fireteam is fine.
     
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  9. Death

    Death Well-Known Member

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    Pretty much what I would say. MAF can do order spam lists but its going to be full of fragile 1 wound units, lack quality specialists, be very predictable, and on the whole I just think its worst than the order spam lists other sectorials can make.

    On the other hand, MAF does Limited Insertion lists pretty well.
     
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  10. clever handle

    clever handle Well-Known Member

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    I've gotten away with this "order spam" morat list for about a year now. I find that it does well in most missions against most opponents. The trick is to decide when to drop the hungy link & swap over.

    16 Orders
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    GROUP 1[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]10 [​IMG]2
    RODOK Lieutenant Combi Rifle, 2 Light Shotguns / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 26)
    RODOK Paramedic (MediKit) Boarding Shotgun, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 21)
    RODOK Paramedic (MediKit) Boarding Shotgun, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 21)
    RODOK Missile Launcher, Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 28)
    RODOK HMG / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 27)
    YAOGAT MULTI Sniper Rifle / Pistol, CCW. (1.5 | 34)
    ZERAT (Forward Observer) Boarding Shotgun, Grenades, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 22)
    ZERAT (Forward Observer) Boarding Shotgun, Grenades, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 22)
    DĀTURAZI Chain Rifle, Grenades, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, AP CCW. (0 | 14)
    DĀTURAZI Chain Rifle, Grenades, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, AP CCW. (0 | 14)

    GROUP 2[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]2 [​IMG]4 [​IMG]5
    RASYAT Combi Rifle + E/Mitter, D-Charges, Eclipse Grenades / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 31)
    OZNAT Combi Rifle + Light Smoke Grenade Launcher / Pistol, Shock CCW. (0 | 18)
    GAKI AP CCW. (0 | 4)
    GAKI AP CCW. (0 | 4)
    PRETA Chain Rifle / AP CCW. (0 | 7)
    PRETA Chain Rifle / AP CCW. (0 | 7)

    4.5 SWC | 300 Points

    Open in Infinity Army
     
  11. daboarder

    daboarder Force One Commander
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    Unless specifically stated as per most IA wildcards no such stipulation exists.

    Thats why 4 vet kazaks+112 is legal
     
  12. Bohrdog

    Bohrdog Santathematics

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    What I don't get is why the Suryat SWC costs are so high. Why are their heavy weapons 2 when everyone else is 1.5??
     
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  13. colbrook

    colbrook Grenade Delivery Specialist

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    HI special weapons tend to be 2 SWC, there are exceptions but Suryats are on par with most other baseline HI.
     
  14. Janzerker

    Janzerker Well-Known Member

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    I'm afraid that's a wrong perception of yours. By default any heavy weapon cost is 2 SWC for HI profiles ( 1 SWC for LIs, 1,5 SWC for MIs, Multi Sniper costs 1,5 SWC no matter what unit ). After that, some units may enjoy discounts or increases; but 2 SWC is normal for any HI carrying a heavy weapon.
     
  15. Pyra

    Pyra Warmongering Potatoe

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    What I don't get is why Morat Vanguard Lt option still has 1swc tax in the sectorial...
     
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  16. DaRedOne

    DaRedOne Morat Warrior Philosopher
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    Originally it was to discourage passive play with MAF. In MAF, most agressive lt profiles cost 0 SWC, and in one case (Yaogat) actually come with an SWC discount. Kornak also has an SWC discount on his LT profile when compared to vanilla. This was supposed to act as incentive for players to pick profiles that play aggressively.

    However, nowadays I find it hard to fit an aggressive LT on my lists because some of our best options for attackers (Q-Drone, FA Sogarat, TA Suryat and Raicho) don't have an LT option. It's kinda odd. I think these changes ended up pushing the Yaogat LT and Kornak LT as the best LT options for MAF.
     
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  17. paraelix

    paraelix Seed Embryo Scholar

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    *Generally* BS13 is the breaking point at which weapons increase from 1.5swc to 2swc. But this is then ignored in some cases (Kamau/Sukeul).

    But there are also some weapons that don't conform to any standard - LRLs, for example, range from 0 to 0.5 to 1 swc.
     
  18. Golem2God

    Golem2God Just a Kooky Kumotail serving others.

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    It would've been great if they did only cost that much SWC.
     
  19. Razi

    Razi Well-Known Member

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    I agree with the principle that paying an SWC tax for the Vanguard Lt isn't the best choice. The MI Lt's all cost 0SWC and the HI are the same SWC as their non LT equivalents.

    However, I disagree the Yaogat and Kornak are best among them. The Yaogat is fine but I rate him the same as the Rodok. Panz+MSV2 vs Mimetism+SJ+twin shotguns both have their uses. Kornak isn't as valuable as he used to be imo. With NCO potentially being put into use in many lists the advantage for Kornak's Strategos can be negated. Leaving the Suryat Lt trading a little punch for being immune to shock and without Frenzy, depending how you feel about that.
     
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  20. DaRedOne

    DaRedOne Morat Warrior Philosopher
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    You forget the fact Kornak allows for a cheap haris with a Suryat and a raktorak. You can either put the TA Suryat in that haris to get an extra order into it, or you can put the RL Suryat for a dangerous ARO piece that can still push forward if you need it to.

    I rate Kornak as a great lt not because of Strategos, but for all his kit. Sure, having 1 wound and NWI is not as good as having 2 wounds, but that's really not why I put Kornak in a list.

    In regards to the Yaogat, I rate him better than the Rodok because he can do better solo. The panzerfaust at 0 SWC with just a little smoke cover can shoot out some dangerous enemy at range, and he can fight off pesky camo infiltrators that try to invade your deployment zone.
     
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