I still think it is funny how you consider "any bs attack" to omit "entire order skill" - > "shord skill" thing. Like it is "oversight". Ha-ha-ha...half of inifnity rules are "oversighted" and yet rules written are applied. Why treating surprise shot as mod if it is not according to rules? Either triangulated fire MUST become short skill Either you cannot combine two skills. If what you're telling (surprise + trianguleted\speculative) is legal, why you cannot then combine long skills and short skills in coordinate orders?
No. What actually happens is Triangulated Fire let's your perform a short skill BS Attack. Surprise Shot is a short skill BS Attack as is BS Attack, Minesweeper, Deactivator, and Forward Observer. The Entire Order skills Triangulated Fire, Speculative Fire and Lean Out all have the BS Attacks nested within them. Some are ineligible for Triangulated Fire because they're not also BS Weapons (Triangulated Fire requires a BS Attack with a BS Weapon). The BS Attacks are: Triangulated Fire* Surprise Shot Minesweeper Deactivator Forward Observer, and BS Attack *Triangulated Fire is weird and is probably a mistake that it's a BS Attack itself. Tl;dr the Entire Order skills let you perform a BS Attack. Surprise Shot is a type of BS Attack. Yes it would having been simpler if CB had 'Shooting Attacks' and 'BS Attack' was a type of 'Shooting Attack'.
Again.... where did you loose "long order"? Triangulated fire is a "long order bs attack". Why short skill "surprise shot" becomes long skill? I didn't see any rules except climbing+ or super jump which can make from "long skill -> short skill" or Intuitive attack/speculative/mmmx which make short -> long skill.- all those examples are explicitly described that they become long\short. We have no description on either triangulated should become short either surprise shot should become long, why are you so sure that it is legal.
Nothing becomes a short skill, you declare "Sensor: Triangulated Fire" as a long skill and as part of that order perform a "Surprise Shot". Under the "effects" of Triangulated Fire you are told: Allows the user to declare a BS Attack with one of his BS Weapons against a target within LoF by making a BS-3 Roll, ignoring all other applicable MODs (Range, Cover, Special Skills such as Camouflage, TO, ODD...). From the FAQ we are told that all skills with the BS Attack trait are considered to be BS attacks; since Surprise Shot has the BS attack trait it can therefore be declared as part of Triangulated Fire. The only requirements for Surprise Shot are that you must have the a skill granting you surprise shot (CH:Camo, TO, Impersonate etc.) and must have been in a marker state or hidden deployment when activated.
I'd agree with it if not the following (from surprise shot) : The user of this Special Skill must be in a Marker state (Camouflaged, TO,Impersonation-1...) or in the Hidden Deployment state at the time when he receives an Order and activates. Special skill, which is a short skill, which is not an automatic or just a simple MOD, it is not a trait. What a strange skill mixing thing? How can you mix short and long skills together? Is it the part of infinity rules? You're refering to part of the FAQ about coordinate order, if your ruling is correct - why then can't you coordinate long order bs attacks with short skills bs attacks?
There is only 1 Entire Ordsr BS Attack. That's Triangulated Fire and yes you can co-ordinate Triangulated Fire and other BS Attacks. You can even nest Triangulated Fire within Lean Out. Lean Out and Speculative Fire are not BS Attacks. They are Entire Order skills that allow you to perform a 'BS Attack'. So you can't co-ordinate them with BS Attacks. The issue is that 'BS Attack' means both a class of skills and a specific skill. You can co-ordinate the entire class of 'BS Attacks' with each other: they count as the same skill declaration. Triangulated Fire, Speculative Fire and Lean Out refer to the class of skills rather than the specific skill when they say "BS Attack". Which is why you can nest Surprise Shot within Triangulated Fire.
I'm in total agreement with the rest (Triangulated is an Entire Order that lets you declare a BS Attack, super straight forward from that perspective) , but where are you getting this from? Lean Out is it's own Entire Order and does not have the BS Attack Label that would allow you to declare it in TF.
Lean-Out is an Entire Order consisting of Move+BS Attack. Triangulated Fire is a BS Attack. Why wouldn't I be able to nest Triangulated Fire within Lean Out? But yes, you can't nest Lean Out in Triangulated Fire.
Until your "nesting" thing won't be officially introduced I would never allow such skills mixing as TO on tournaments. As I mentioned before - why triangulated fire do not becomes short skill while being used with surprise attack or why surprise attack magically becomes long skill - is not supported by rules, therefore should not exist. This is overestimating, overRuling in my opinion.
Triangulated Fire lets you make a BS Attack as part of the Entire Order. Triangulated Fire lets you make a Surprise Shot as part of the Entire Order. Triangulated Fire lets you make a Forward Observe as part of the Entire Order. All the above are identical.
Surprise Shot is a type of BS Attack. That's what the Coordinates Order FAQ tells us. The Entire Order skills let you perform a BS Attack. That's RAW. So Surprise Attack doesn't need to 'become' anything, it simply remains a type of 'BS Attack'. That's all that's sufficient. 'Nesting' is just short hand to describe the interaction, it's not actually pertinent terminology.
So you're going to tell your players to ignore the FAQ entry that allows it, and that they're not allowed to mix BS Attacks in their coordinated orders? Or you're going to tell players that that FAQ only applies to Coordinated Orders and not to any of the other situations where the same concerns apply? If you're going to play the TO card, put your card on the table and be completely public about it. Look at the skills that say "make a BS Attack" in their effects. Ask, honestly, "What is a BS Attack?" What the FAQ says to us is that "BS Attack" means is the BS Attack skill or anything with the BS Attack label. None of the skills that say "make a BS Attack" say that you have to make a short skill BS Attack, or can't make an Entire Order BS Attack.
I referred nesting to short skill inside long order. We have such examples of "nesting" (like intuitive\speculative attack which becomes long order ) it specifies that it becomes long order. FAQ about declaring different bs attacks together during coordinate order - right? Then why can't you use long order bs attacks and short attacks during one coordinate order from different coordinated troopers? Long and short skill - are not same classification as bs attack or cc attack.
From FAQ 1.4, emphasis mine. "Do MediKits, Forward Observer, Discover, Deactivators and Minesweepers get the Burst Support Bonus granted by a Fireteam? Can they be used with Triangulated Fire? No, because they are Skills or items of Equipment." The wording here seems like one of CB's classic"not answering the question fully" FAQs but where are we getting that FO can be used as part of Triangulated fire when this seems to explicitly say the opposite?
Sorry, I forgot about that FAQ. I think the distinction here is that Coordinated Order needs all the skills used to be BS Attacks, which includes FO, but Triangulated Fire needs a BS Attack with a BS Weapon, which would allow Surprise Shot with, for example, an Assault Pistol but not with FO. I wouldn't be surprised or upset if that particular bit of FAQ goes the way of the Shock+Multi Wound NWI one though, as the distinction is very very fine.
That seems to make the most sense for now. Unfortunately that and the Coordinated Order entry seem to have opposing interpretations for the purposes of this discussion.
You can use Entire Order skills in a Coordinated order with Short Skills. You can co-ordinate Triangular Fire with other BS Attacks. Lean Out, Intuitive Attack and Speculative Fire are not themselves BS Attacks and so cannot be Coordinated with anything other than themselves.
