Attack pieces in OSS

thats a point I missed to point out, you are absolutely correct.

The point I wanted to make was more directed into her being "boring" as a gaming mechanic not in regard to awesomeness of skill. I just wanted to state, that the effect can be compared to assisted fire (mods to your shooting) but I agree with what you say!

 

THAT !!!

 

K, so we want more interesting rules. Now I get it.
I kind of agree.

 

The boringness is something i too mentionned at the end of my post, so i can't but agree with you ;)

 

At first I thought, that Apsara and Jumper LZ "sucks", because Assisted Fire is a thing. But by the time I often play with 2 Hackers, so I can maintain 2x Assisted Fire on different robots and thats when Apsara can come in handy, because she is a little cheaper and doesnt need an order. So you can go with your hacker of choice (mostly Danavas or MK1 I would say), put AF on TR Bot/Rudra or even the Garuda via Repeater and Apsara supports your core link.

 

Well, dont You think that OSS is most boring version of Aleph?

 

I disagree because you can do a lot in OSS you can't in Aleph. Or rather, you could do it in Aleph, but it would probably be inefficient. Sure, if you just stay in the "dakini link + specialists" pattern, OSS is no fun.

But you can play asuras - they are far better in OSS than in vanilla.
But you have multiple mixed links. Even small one like MSV2 deva + spec CSU.Shakti + rudras + deva for a fun, versatile, offensive haris. Full Yadu core if you like HI pain train - but without the hackable liability. Why not duo asura ?
I personnally have quite a few various and strange lists i want to try asap (asura trio, duo marut, heavily armored assault with 2 rudras and several yadus, yadu full core, camo spam list with 3 nagas+ Lt dasyu + Dart ...) . They are probably non competitive, but these are lists that can't be done in vanilla, but could work somewhat.

 

How Asuras are better in smokeless OSS than in vanilla?
After few months with OSS, fieldieng Asura in vanilla with friendly myrmidon was like new life. But tbh I feel bad fielding Asura in OSS;P (and I really want to! ;((( Started Aleph for her ;((( )

 

It is actualy 42 pts for HMG dakini generating 2 orders.
But basicaly yeah. I agree.

 

Because smoke + MSV is not everything. In OSS, i play Asura LT2 hacker. I dont play her as an attack piece, but rather as a support that can go and make things personnal when needed, usually at turn 3. I play her with rudra, the both of them are such a nice combination. I could do the same in vanilla, but OSS brings stronger defense with linked dakinis and deva (FO deva), better order management (the Lt2, fireteams, even a simple deva/csu duo), and some other options like CSU, cheaper holo2 ...

About smoke + MSV, you also need to remind that it actually cost you at least one order to throw said smoke, more if you miss the roll - or if you have to move your smoke thrower to where he needs to be, because since they are not linked, your asura or deva will probably move away from it. So you need more orders in a list that will have a worse order economy (cause no fireteam). That is, if the opponent, knowing you can use the smoke+msv combo, let's unlinked troops in the open for you to shoot at it.
And while it's strong, are you really needing it ? With a burst 4 weapon, you often don't need the -6MOD. If the point is to select who you are firing at, you may instead slice the pie. And a MSV-2 deva in a core 5 link has better odds than an unlinked MSV-2 deva firing through smoke.

In my opinion, smoke is good, very good, but not mandatory. The only thing i miss is the "ablative armor" that CR myrmidons can do for a Marut during the reactive phase.

 

It's not the same

Apsara gives number2 to every member of your fireteam that is a remote. You don't have every egg in the same basket. If you activate your number2 hmg and got crited, you lose your heavy weapon, your fireteam, and number2 is useless since the user of the skill just got killed. Beside, it would do little for you during the reactive turn. If the opponent wound or isolate your team leader, suddenly the whole fireteam break. He can now pick them one per one, since they are now weaker. When facing a core 5 team, you need either to remove 3 members to weaken it significantly ... or just the team leader. Except that when there is an apsara, you can only take the first option.
This is not about raw power, this is about resilience.

 

I think that attacker with good stats is great.
But attacker with good stats AND negative mods is better. Like Mowang and Su jian.
And yes, Asura needs it IMO. It can do things with B4 weapon and her BS... But she still isnt amazing as such. Not for THOSE points;) In OSS combination of few different units can do it better, bringing along moar orders.

 

Except that you're still picking the spitfire variant while i'm talking about the HD+ variant. That is, a sturdy lieutenant that is also a strong support and that can play as a secondary attack piece if needed.

 

Ok, misunderstanding.
I play only hacker version. Because I love the fluff. And fluff is only reason to field her. Because if we want spitfire there are better options ofr those points.
I have no problem with smoke and hacker working together in vanilla.
And yes, linked 4 dices vs 3 dieces but good negative mod (-6) is IMO better.

 

The only reason I don't play Asura Lt2 HD+ in vanilla is because CB doesn't let me. And note this is not "only sectorials get fireteams" thing - Yu Jing freely got one of the best freakin' Lts with Lt2 (for free!) with IA. This is either CB not bothering to port it back. I was gonna say CB realised no-one would play Asura in OS if we had the Lt2 HD+ in vanilla, but I don't think they really thought it through that much, they just didn't want Haris and Duo versions in vanilla so they didn't bother porting the Lt2 HD+ neither.

I strongly disagree OS brings stronger defence. It brings different defence, with some better ARO options, but realistically, they're much more vulnerable to different type of attacks (for example, attack runs with Camo Infiltrated troops).

If enemy isn't leaving troops for me to shoot, they're also not leaving anyone to slow down my advance. I'm good with that.
Also, that Smoke thrower provides much more than just negative MOD.

You need it on Asura. MSV2 Deva is cheap enough to be included just for chance, not to mention it is an unfair comparison comparing a Deva+Myrmidon vs Deva+4 other troopers.
Also, that "better with 5 man link" is very small difference against BS11 HMG, both in good range - 81% vs 76%. This evens out for a B4 TR REM.
However, what you forget is that Deva in Smoke will only get shot back by trooper who she shoots, whereas Deva in link will get shot by anyone that sees her. And yeah, sometimes you can easily slice the pie... But sometimes you can't. And when you are stuck in DZ with enemy outranging your nice Spitfire, you can't do anything with that link. Whereas Deva in Smoke can advance into good range in safety.

Nothing is mandatory. But realistically, Asura is far too expensive for what she provides even if she has Smoke. Marut is slightly better, but still.

 

That's just your opinion. Fact is this is a sectorial exclusive option. So an advantage of OSS over generic.

So a core fireteam with six sense L2 is more vulnerable to camo, since they can wait for them to declare their second skill before AROing (EDIT: if it is in their ZoC) and ignore surprise shot ? AVA3 nagas (who can take minelayer) is less than AVA2 nagas ?

There is a difference between "the opponent let troops in the open so you can throw smoke from your deployment zone and shoot at it with your MSV" and "no one is here to slow down your advance". Please ...

In what it is unfair ? Especially when said other 4 troopers may also include specialists, long range HMG able to white noise shoot at MSV wielders and simply extra bodies that can move with the same order ? OSS has fireteams, vanilla doesn't. So i should not take fireteams in consideration when comparing both ? Tell me your deva + myrmidon, they have order monkeys, isn't it ? Do they provide the same bonuses the other member of the fireteam do ? No. So, should i ignore them ? Why ?

And it's a better choice versus 4+ fireteam who have SSL2 (but if they don't have mimetism or ODD you are better with the HMG dakini. But guess what ? You can choose what member you use for an action, so why not take the best one ?

I DID take it into consideration. No need to remind me about that.

Or not ... Maybe the deva is not the only fighter in the team ? Maybe you took a MSR dakini mainly for the reactive turn, but it will come handy to cover for that ?

That's your opinion, nothing more. And once again, smoke also need orders to be used. Your smoke thrower is not magically in the right place every time, you may need to make him move, and you WILL need him to use at least an order for a move+throw, providing you succeed your roll. Maybe these orders may be useful elsewhere. By the way, that's also something i pointed with the apsara. Sure it's a bit less than assisted fire, but it is free. More order is a thing, using less orders is also a thing.

 

Wasn't disagreeing you on that, although it is purely lore-ful advantage. I want to play Asura Lt2 HD+, therefore I have to play OperationS. My point was that there was no reason to limit her to OperationS only, and that from everything else I can see, it was simply because they couldn't be bothered to port her into vanilla too.

First of all, AVA3 Nagas with full fireteam and Asura? Please. AVA2 is perfectly enough. However, Fireteam is more vulnerable to Camo because that camo can more easily get into Camo bad ranges, lay mines (which Dakinis are extremely vulnerable) and engage them piecemeal. Having access to Myrmidons does provide help there.
And lets be clear. This is not me complaining about not having access to Myrmidons; I'm merely saying that your supposed advantage is much smaller than you think.

I'm not claiming they are completely leaving themselves open, but presumably they have the same list. Either the trooper is providing an ARO - where my Asura can engage them from Smoke, or they are not providing the ARO there, meaning I don't need to engage them from Smoke.

It is unfair because Deva+4 other troopers cost far more than Deva+Myrmidon. For a fair comparison, you need to compare (roughly) equal point values. The Smoke variant has extra points it is free to spend on other options, whereas Deva+4 other troopers can only spend points on a subset of troopers, which all have to be near them. Nobody is saying those 4 other troopers don't provide useful things past orders, but hey, so do the extra points leftover after Deva+Myrmidon.
However, the mere fact you are surprised and asking why is the comparison unfair shows me you don't really understand how these games work.
So yes, I have to admit your point, Deva in a full fireteam is much better than Deva and Myrmidon, if we're looking at it just like that.

You don't always have full choice of options due to terrain and other enemy ARO positions. Fireteams are much harder to manage than single models. Again, I'm not complaining, but all this means Fireteams are not as good as you make them to be.

Nothing in your post indicated that you took isolation and maneuverability Smoke provides into consideration? That's very important but non-obvious point, yet you make no reference to it and keep talking like the -6 modifier it provides to most other troopers is the only thing ever. So how would I know you took it into consideration? Not a mind-reader here.

Sure, it's a maybe, but so is you rolling well enough for your fireteam. Guess what, there's been whole games where I had access to Smoke yet never used it. It's not about using it ALL THE TIME. It's about having an option to use it.

IT IS NOT FREE. You really don't understand. You are paying 22 points for an Order and this bonus. You don't even get to use the model while this bonus is active.

 

I compare it to assisted fire. You pay for a standard HD (or HD+) and you still need to use orders. It's not free either. But it cost at least the order it provides, whereas the apsara is essentialy an order monkey with a free buff.

 

I was not saying the other thing was free. Merely that Apsaras bonus isn't free either. It doesn't cost an Order, and you can start the game with it active - that is by far the biggest advantage in my opinion, able to start the game with the bonus active on one of your troopers.

I am not saying you are overpaying for it. It is actually costed quite well in my opinion, maybe a tad overcosted due to all the restrictions (REM in Fireteam, Apsaras in same Combat Group, Aspara may not do ANYTHING while the bonus is active, cannot stack with Assisted Fire). But it's also not free.