Excellent review Firello . You have wrritten down all issues with MO Lt, and main problem with new MO imo. You either spend 50ish pts for obvious Lt that is just begging for further investments , to utilise his full potentil. Or you spend 1/3 of your pts allowance on LT which brings obvious consequences for the whole roster . Before we got strickt frame of the army (hospitaller + spevialist) which leaves minimal space for other options . Now we get new fun tools (dart, seraph, tik, montesa) but they got screwed by LT problems that are main issue when creating rosters.
I am not sure why you people keep putting Auxbot Sergeant in lists without a Trauma Doc or Machinist in them. Is the disposable DTW really more useful than a cheap backup healer?
I see a deliberate limitation, but I disagree it indicates a problem, as in something that CB accidentally screwed up. I also think you're a bit too quick to dismiss the Combi rifle Father Knight. It's true he's more expensive, but the other options have Frenzy. If you want to get some work done, and not put the LT in a fire team, having no frenzy is a plus. Otherwise you'd going to be in turn 2/3 and no longer be able to take cover. His ARM5/BTS9 is also nice, as is FO. I think you're a bit too quick to suggest that Joan's Frenzy can be fixed by putting her into a Fireteam, since her options are either a FK (which you didn't like) or a Knight Santiago. Further having 1/3 to 1/4 of your army in one place has it's own problems, like being a great target for templates from units like Mutts. It's true that Joan has Inspiring Leadership, but I find it hard to build a good list with the addition of the warcor and the tech bee. Generally they end up in group 2, which doesn't help as much as it might in vanilla, since you're limited in what you can add there by the points constraints on the rest of the list. Even adding in the Mulebot 2x and the Fugazi I find it hard to get above 4-5 orders in group 2. Maybe I just need to play with it more, but even running a cheap spam of Order Sgts + Santiagos it's hard. I also think you're a bit too quick to dismiss the Hospitaller MULTI rifle. 34 points is pretty cheap, and with DA ARO he's decent for DZ defense, stacking AROs, or dealing with lighter units. I think sticking him on top of a building, hiding is a mistake. He's much more resilient with ARM4, W2, BS14, and the MULTI Rifle than the 10 pt fusilier.
I'd like to point out that that 100 points for LT and backup are incredibly strong choices, though. MO has the same obvious LT thing. If anything, the LT got less obvious. It's now possible to have Joan, fk, what looks like several Joans, Santiago, and hospitaller all appear to be the LT, all linkable, all with BS 14+, and you get CoC, and/or NCO. It's not entirely feasible to select all of the LT options in a list, but it IS possible to have your potential LTs be in opposite sides of the table, surrounded by incredibly good troops in links, and even still have CoC. In MAF, I learned to not care about the LT. In Onyx I learned to use the obvious LT to predict what my opponent may try. MO is in the Onyx direction, with even less squishy LTs and actually gets CoC. MO is doing just fine, as long as you can swallow having your LT doing lots of fighting, and build strategy around how your opponent may wish to spend many orders trying to get at your LT... Which is actually to your benefit if you set things up correctly.
Well, the limitation is quite hard considering that MO is not able to do limited insertion as potently as IA or spam orders with super cheap and incredibly efficient defensive links (looking at 5-man linked Kamau MSR+MSV2+Mimetism in a 10-pt Fusilier link). Just trying to figure out the go-to way of my beloved Military Orders in the scope of an overall mess that has happened. 1. Let's work out the use case for a lone Father Knight FO Lt. Why do you want the guy to work outside of Fireteam in the first place? Most likely, because you're running aggressive core fireteam that wants to go forward and crush things - and you don't want them to take your Lt along. It's also possible to run a big threat saturation list without any fireteams at all - but for this purpose, Joan is vastly better since she's providing so much needed order efficiency for just 4 more points (she'd do much more even by just standing in the back and issuing Sync orders) Since FK himself does not have a big gun or hacking device or whatever other reason to have him anywhere close to the enemy, you want him to sit in the back and occasionally go forward for FO/button pushing duties when there's nobody around to do the job and it's safe enough (as you're risking a lot by moving your Lt forward anyway). Sometimes it could be also more order efficient to ask your Lt to kill that pesky infiltrator instead of moving your fireteam / proper killer pieces to do the same. However, Frenzy is only important if you're alone and you have already killed some dudes with your Combi rifle (or in CC, but that's even more ridiculous) and plan to do kill some more - very questionable/risky decision, to say the least. Then, you'd have this no cover situation: if you try to engage the enemy for the second time in the following turn with your Lieutenant! Honestly, it's really hard to imagine a reasonable situation where you'd do that. Finally, if you want to do some Forward Observing / Button Pushing - why don't you take a wonderful TOFOOS? This guy starts in the middle of the board, has TO to do the job rather reliably, can provide board control with Mines and famous "-12" Suppressive Fire, besides of being cheaper and not your Lt, of course. So, Father Knight FO is basically overpaying for his lack of Frenzy and is 46 pts sitting in your DZ waiting for a case you shouldn't get into in the first place, while there are way, way better pieces to do his supposed duties. 2. Joan/Spitfire can sometimes suffer from being Frenzied, but you can cancel it by linking her with Santiago KHD, if you have one somewhere around. Usually, it's not needed anyway because she also wants to give those Sync orders and participate in them. I'd prefer an expensive model that suffers from Frenzy occasionally because she has a reason to rather than an expensive model that does not suffer from Frenzy while there's no use to it anyway. 3. Hospitaller Multi, while being 10 points cheaper than FK FO, having a better gun and Stealth/Courage, is still not a proper attack / ARO piece, and suffers from the same lack of utility. He's not a specialist, he does not link with order sergeants and does not possess a useful Lt skill. I have already explained why having him in Haris is a terrible idea, while he also does not really have a use in Hospitaller Core since those guys are obviously going to be shot a lot, and you don't want your Lt to be shot at while he's not doing anything more valuable than merely filling the link. And the last, remember that anything in Infinity dies if you throw enough dice at it. However resilient FK and Hospitaller are, they won't hold against a dedicated attack piece. Especially if they are alone.
I'm just surprised at how much discontent there is with Military Orders playing a bit more thematically. It's literally in the fluff blurps that the Orders have issues with over-zealous Father Knights and leaders charging into combat and getting themselves killed. In fact that's the reason they made the Seraph, as its easier to manufacture a new Remote Presence TAG than train a new Lieutenant. It's cool that CB chose to emphasize on this aspect and as a boon, open up for more link options and better or more price efficient profiles. I think if you really liked that hidden fusilier Lieutenant that much you might be better off in Varuna or Acon etc. Or at least try out some of the new options before declaring the sky is falling. It appears CB wants the Mitary Orders to be for the bold and brash soldiers of PanOceania who eschew safety in favor of direct contact. Remember - service guarantees resurrection!
@Firellon, while I like how in-depth your posts are, I think you're creating some entirely artificial limitations that affect your unit evaluation. Regarding Father-Knight: while I think the idea of elite HIs armed with Combi Rifles should be staked and buried at a crossroad, I'd still like that unit near the enemy. I wouldn't want him shooting at other HIs, but if I could threaten a flank, shoot some light troops, and find a good spot for placing him in SF, then I'd go for it. Especially if there would be a possibility of reaching an objective, or engaging an otherwise hard to shoot at target (like the infamous Kamau sniper) in CC. It's not that far-fetched of an idea as you think, and while I'd like him to have a better weapon - or a secondary one, like Nanopulser - there's still a niche for him. And the fact that F-K are as durable as HI go certainly helps. Lack of Frenzy helps in that last regard. Regarding Hospitaller Multi: I'm completely lost here. If BS 14, ARM 4, BTS 6 HI armed with a Multi isn't a proper attack piece, then what is? Units don't necessarily need a Spitfire to be considered for assault role. You can clear the longer range AROs with a long range unit of your own, then advance with the Hospitaller. In both cases having a CoC helps a lot. I have a feeling that some people so readily dismiss Sepulchre due to his price, that are unable to reconsider the value of aggressive Lieutenants in MO. Also, @RogueJello and @Lightforge are spot on; this is not a bungled issue, but a deliberate limitation. Every sectorial, including the newest ones, has some. MO's is the usually obvious, expensive, and aggresive Lieutenant. This means that it's impossible to play MO as one would play NCA or ASA, and therefore there's no reason to try. Doing so is like forcing both a monkey and a seal to do a standarized test of trying to climb a tree.
I feel that MO has a couple of advantages/differences from IA. First, cheaper W2 models due to Frenzy. Second, lots of CC monsters. Third, AVA Total on our Order Sgts. Fourth, lots of unique, interesting options for our AVA Total Order Sgts/Spec Sgts. 3) Because my opponent has deployed in such a manner that my fireteam cannot do the job efficiently. A couple of things that can hamper this are being pinned down in the DZ (happened last game with a mine laying Fiday), or being on the "wrong" side of the board. With the limited number of troopers in MO, it's going to be challenging to have something in all the "right" places to be able to things on. Having a big gun is always better than a small one, but a Combi Rifle on an HI is far from useless, particularly against annoyance pieces like 45thers and Mutts. One of the big weaknesses of MO is having lots and lot of expensive models, making forces that want to "trade up" a real problem, since they're in a target rich environment. So a MR or Combi on BS14 is perfect for these sorts of engagements. I also like tanking mines with the F-K. With ARM5 the likelihood of taking a single wound is pretty low, and with W2 I'm willing to take that chance in a way I'm unwilling to do with a OS link, where a failed roll at ARM1 means a reduced or broken link. Or my opponent comes gunning for my LT, which is pretty likely. Further being alone is likely for some of the models you've listed as being a better value for the points. Hospitallers need a Haris or Core, which is expensive. Joan needs either a Crusade Fireteam, or a Duo with a F-K or Santiago, neither of whom is cheap. Not being able to use her to shoot stuff up is a serious limitation to avoid the Frenzy penalty. Finally it's a big IF that there is still a F-K or Santiago to duo with near her, and still alive turn 2-3. While true, I don't understand the relevance to this discussion, if everything dies, then it doesn't matter. My point is that while it's true that most things die, you can take more risks with pieces like the Hospitaller and F-K that are more durable than you could with the 10 pt Fusilier. As such putting the Hospitaller on a roof where he cannot come out during turn 2-3 is a much poorer choice than hiding a Fusilier would be. (And by turn 2-3 I sometimes want to bring out the Fusie LT and do some work too).
Agree. Almost. MO now is absolutely thematicall army. Now do the same to all armies. No more LI Lt, all Lt must cost +35 pts. All de CoC must cost +52. Empathy, dude.
Strawman much? ;) Cheap LI Lt's and cheap CoC are only one of possible ways of playing the game. The problem is that people treat it as the only way to do so, while dismissing every argument because it goes against that one true way. Ultimately it's pointless to argue, people will either find some fun in playing updated MO or move on, but arguments about MO being weak because they can't be played in a way people are used to are faulty at their core. Again; the update has given us much more tools than it has taken away. Sectorial got stronger. It's just became unsuited for one particular playstyle.
Loss of Lieutenant This is equals on all armies. MO is now more pretty on table? Yes, but any veteran player know that this is the easy way to destroy MO.
Sure. Once he'll kill two pretty durable units, one of which can be disguised as something completely inoffensive. Again, this implies that the only way to play is to have a cheap Lt hidden somewhere safe, so enemy can't get to him, or to have a cheap CoC doing the same thing.
Yes. As 95% of armies of Infinity. This 2 ways to plays are the only 2 ways to play if you want play in equal conditions; balanced.
I genuinely think people are underestimating the sepulchre coc. A high wip, tough specialist, capable of acting as a beat stick or whacking buttons in the final turn? With holoprojector as well? I like that a lot, and he has done good work for me in the first few games I have played. My fear is that he becomes an autoinclude, as that is list limiting, but as it stands, I have no issue with putting him in my list as I think he is pretty good. Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk
Absolutely agree. Problem? this autoinclude of 52-56 pts is no sense if you think about CORE + HARIS list.
Not seeing a problem. Military Orders ────────────────────────────────────────────────── 10 KNIGHT OF SANTIAGO Hacker (Killer Hacking Device) Combi Rifle, Nanopulser, D-Charges + 1 TinBot A (Deflector L1) / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 38) ORDER SERGEANT Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 13) ORDER SERGEANT Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 13) BROTHER KONSTANTINOS Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Assault Pistol, CCW. (0 | 29) ORDER SERGEANT Heavy Rocket Launcher / Assault Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 15) KNIGHT OF THE HOLY SEPULCHRE (Chain of Command) Spitfire / Pistol, DA CCW. (2 | 56) KNIGHT HOSPITALLER Doctor (Fireteam: Haris, MediKit) Combi Rifle / Pistol, DA CCW. (0.5 | 36) KNIGHT HOSPITALLER Boarding Shotgun / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 31) KNIGHT HOSPITALLER HMG / Pistol, DA CCW. (2 | 39) BLACK FRIAR (Albedo, Biometric Visor L1) MULTI Rifle, Nanopulser, Drop Bears / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 28) 6 SWC | 298 Points Open in Infinity Army
I agree, but I think people have been dogging him for a while, and haven't quite caught up to the changes. Personally I've liked him since N2, but that may just be because of the cool "gun fighter" type model. I also like mind games, which may or may not be to the play style of some people. With MO being as obvious as a brick to the face, having a trickster model might be outside of the playstyle of people otherwise attracted to the sectorial.
While it's incredibly fluffy, it's just uncomfortable to gamble your every game on an assumption that your Lt wouldn't die even in the middle of battle. I'm in for risk, but that kind of stuff should also propose some sort of reward, shouldn't it? It's not like I liked Fusiliers in MO myself, they were out of theme and non-fitting to the sectorial of Space Catholics doing the great Crusade. However, they were really, really good in comparison to regular Order Sergeants (not specialist ones), since they did absolutely the same for 3 points less and could have been Lts as well - which would allow you for safe planning and reliable strategy. Back then, the only viable Lts were either Fusilier or Joan (which is still proposing high risk / high reward Lt up to this day). Those options, while limited, were not an easy choice and you've got think a lot there. What I feel bad about is that now we do not have an equal selection of Lts or clearly defined roles for some specific ones like that unlucky FK FO. I wish for all of our Lieutenants to get a good reason to be ones in our lists, so we'd think about it instead of picking up either Joan or Santiago. I'm fine, may all of our Lts be HI trying to be active and go right into the fray - but let them at least be really, really good. The limitations you are talking about are coming from the list efficiency. I want all of the units in my lists to have a clearly defined purpose and to do their job well. It's Pano style :) I agree with your words regarding Father Knight, however, if we're talking about supportive Lt, possibly without backup like KotHS (since you're less likely to take backup for Lt you don't intend to immediately go into the battle and die there) - I see little sense in pushing the flank with your Combi Lt on turn 1-2, while on the turn 3 Frenzy wouldn't matter anyway. Speaking of Kamau Sniper-like guy - you'd never get to this guy with unlinked Father Knight, it's just way too far on the other side of the table and FK lacks any tools to get himself that far with his Combi. And again, it's not the unit that's bad, but his ability to be a good Lt in comparison to the others available, like 49 pts / +1 SWC Joan (who also has a better gun, BS, CC, etc.) Regarding Hospitaller Multi: a good attack piece is the one that is effective at destroying enemy forces. This is achieved through a combination of good movement values, order efficiency (like 4 other dudes tagging along or proper deployment skill), high burst weaponry, high range weaponry, modifiers to affect the FtF rolls and overall resiliency. For example, Core-linked Hospitaller Doctor is a good attack piece because he has effective 17 BS, Burst 4, he's specialist, has 2 wounds and carries around 4 other guys that cover him on his unfavourable ranges. Bulleteer with Spitfire is a good attack piece because he's fast with 6-4 movement, carries Spitfire and can be buffed with Marksmanship, as well as modifies enemies BS by a whopping -6. TOFOOS is a nice attack piece because he starts the game in the middle of the table with TO, has a weapon that's good at close ranges, and he's a specialist on top of that. And that's why a lone Hospitaller with Multirifle is not a good attack piece: he is not order efficient, not a specialist, does not cover long ranges, lacks tools to get himself in his favourable range and does not modify the FtF roll at all, relying solely on his mediocre Burst 3. And yes, he's resilient, but that's not the first priority parameter. He's also your freaking Lt, and if you lose him, the whole battle plan would get destroyed. Why are you so eager to risk him doing the job he's not cut for in the first place? CoC would help way better if you intend your Lt to die. And in order to do that well, you need him to be an effective killer, preferably creating a hole in enemy's defences before going down. Or wasting the entire opponent's turn trying to kill him in a good position. By the way, why wouldn't you share some lists that make sense out of FK and Hospitaller Lts? Maybe, I'm missing something?
Definitely. Zuyongs with Tactical Awareness would agree :) It's completely fine to be unlike IA, but I want to know how exactly we're going to deal with 16 orders Limited Insertion on HI while having merely 10-11 of ours. Lots of CC monsters... in a game about shooting, without any tools to get themselves in the close combat. So, it's more of a self-defense CC monsters, apparently. About Specialist order Sergeants, especially TO inflitrators - I can't help but agree. They are still the true jewel of MO. The sad thing is that I now can't deploy a lot of them since the list has to be built around Lt and his glorious sacrifice, basically. Ok, sure, FK is ok for tanking mines. But would you like to do that with your Lt? Why? Well, I merely wanted to point out that if you expose your Lt, it would most likely be dead on the opponent's turn, no matter how strong he is. That's why I'd still advise for this poor Hospitaller to hide or cover the back rather than look out for ARO somewhere on the flank. And yeah, on the last turns sometimes you need to risk him and he's better at doing that than Fusilier. You just need to seriously consider that option before doing so. Excuse me sir, but who's your Lieutenant here?
