They don't break any fundamental rule. Each regular order is added to the order pool which all models on the table can use. TA nor NCO add to the order pool. TA is an additional order that the unit can use on itself and only itself (like an irregular order). NCO is just an inverse Strategos L1. Speaking of Strategos there's a rule that breaks... nah, an exception to the fundamentals (which seems like you're saying those haven't existed in Infinity before... Startegos has been in since N2HS). Strategos already changes how LT orders work and how deployment is played. Then we have G: Jumper L1 which is an exception for how orders are perceived and how combat groups work. We then have AI: Beacons that are exception to the games standard deployment rules. Oh, and then we have stuff like Fatality which an exception to how damage and crits work in the game. Let's not forget about the Tohaa and the Symbiomates and the exceptions that come with them to the basic fundamental rules. Infinity has always had exceptions to its fundamentals. NCO and TA are no different.
@Solodice There has always been exceptions, I cited LT order and impetuous order for example. The problem is adding more... And this is an irregular order that doesn't really work like an irregular order and a possibility to use the LT order in another way than LT can use it (LT can't use it in a fire team). If it was an "ordinary" irregular order and a way to use the LT order without changing how it works I wouldn't have that much against it. This is rules bloat as bandaid to solve limitations in the basic system. And that's not a good sign.
And when is this applied again? Right, in link teams and no where else. NCO and TA get an exception there as well being able to apply their rules to link teams (doing what irregular orders and a regular LT order can not). Not hard for me to see that and understand it.
@Solodice Have you read my posts? Or are you just knee jerk reacting? Might not be hard for YOU. I have played this game since Campaign Paradiso was released. It will not be a problem for ME either. For a NEW PLAYER this will be an addition to a already high entry point into this game. That's the problem for me. And I don't feel that this distinctions give that much added value to the game that you couldn't made them a bit more streamlined and easier for the new player. I'm a WarCor and have been since 2013-2014 somewhere. I try to get new players into this game. This is just a few additional rules. But how many additional rules have been added since N3? How many rules in N3 are unnecessary? I'm all for removing Guard and removing the table part of Protheion. Use MA instead. I want it to be easier to introduce new players, not harder. >>And when is this applied again? Right, in link teams and no where else. And you're already not treating the skills right. The TA irregular order also can not be converted with a command token...
Hmmm, didn't my other post already talk about how TA isn't added to the order pool. I know how the skill works. It's a non transformable irregular order that can be used in a link team (but only by the model with the skill when it is the link leader). But hey what do I know because I'm not a warcor...
No irregular orders are added to the pool. That has nothing to do with if the irregular order can be converted with a command token or not. ------- I'm not trying to be a prick here. Being a WarCor doesn't give me better understanding of the rules, it gives me an incentive to introduce new people to the game. Which is made more difficult by the increasing complexity of the game. I trust you can play the game good enough so that this will not cause you problems. But trying to teach new persons is another thing. Telling a new player: >> It's a non transformable irregular order that can be used in a link team (but only by the model with the skill when it is the link leader). is a sure way to confuse them when orders, links, command tokens and so on are not yet intuitive. Even though I liked your formulation, it's quite good really . But compare it with: "The model generates an additional irregular order." That's easy to remember, doesn't cause any confusion. The question becomes: Is that distinction so important that it's a good idea to increase the games complexity level for beginners for it (and all other complex rules added up)? I don't think so. It's ok if you argue that it's worth it because reason A or reason B. But you can't tell me that it's not increasing the games complexity (particular for beginners).
It will definitely add to the complexity. How complex it is though depends on how the teacher presents it and how the student takes that info in. With beginners I would not start them with link teams (even if they want to play sectorials). It's like starting with algebra when we haven't even started with the basics of math. For some the process will be simple and fast while others might struggle. But once the fundamentals are done then we can start adding on the exceptions and other complex rules. Inch by inch we can get there. Will everything ever be understood? Never. I don't know everything off the top of my head. I do know the games fundamentals, their exceptions, and some of the more complex rules in the game. I've have been around since N2HS but I've barely been able to play any games using N3. My sentence explaining TA and how it works should be confusing for beginners. Like if I started with algebra for a 2nd grade class. "There's letters in math?".
I have not been privy to the design criteria. I thought it was more of a "make elite armies more elite(/able to compete with armies with more orders)". Then maybe it would have been a better thing if TA gave them an additional regular order instead of an irregular that can be use in fire teams ;-). It's not like the models with it are cheap spammable order generators. And maybe change the rule so that LT can use the LT order in link teams. I get it, it's because of balance issues. And I trust CB there. But I sadly think that increasing the amount of "it's like A except B and C and we will still call it A to make things more convoluted" ;-) is a bad idea for recruitment. I haven't tried Aristeia but I've heard good things about CB creating a tactical complex game with streamlined rules from people that have.
@Solodice In Oslo we have few "hardcore" players but more "causal" players. They like the game but have problems with the complexity. In another group I visited not long ago players understood advanced rules like fire teams and so on but not all the fundamentals, like how you climb without the climbing+ skill. I have realized that if I'm not clear enough teaching then players (make stuff up/) misunderstand and think that's what I said. And it may take long time before I or someone else catch the error. So for me clarity of rules and ease of teaching becomes quite important. :-(
Yes, some simplification, or getting all the rules to fundamentally work the same way, is important. The fundamentals of the game were that usually a model generates one order, but certain rules can add a second one (Impetuous, Fury). It's been that way since 2006. If you turn Tactical Awareness into an ordinary Irregular Order, you have to spend a LOT of Command Tokens to convert them, which makes the 12+ order combat group impossible to use in practice. Turn 1 you will be out of Command Tokens. And that makes the actual point of the rule (allowing an army averaging 35-40pts a model) to be competitive.
@Section9 Yes, that's a lot of command tokens. If it's important that you can fuel your link(s) with more then 10 orders? I would propose: Give this skill to models that don't operate primary in fire teams. Then you get an army where "all" parts are active instead of only fueling orders to the link(s). But the rule is written, I'm only disgruntled. I think CB knows what they are doing when it comes to balance. I also don't think they want to change rules that have been printed in a book and that's why they can't change the LT order to be usable in a link but needs NCO (or Strategos) for that. But for me this shows that the core system is breaking down and that CB is realising that 10 order lists are disadvantaged. And I would love if they managed to fix that problem instead as I usually prefer playing single combat group lists.
CB knows that 10 order list are disadvantaged since reinforced tactical link in ITS rules and TAGs buffs;) And they dont have idea what to do since then;) (2016)
I think this is a bit harsh. I've seen them do a number of things to slide the balance back. Further I think their current approach of baby steps to gradually slide into a better point of balance is a better approach than a sudden shift. The last thing I want to see happen is for the rules to ping pong from one broken extreme to another. That's generally what has happened in 40K for years, and it makes for a very unpleasant experience. Just to be clear, I run both Ariandna/Caledonia with two full combat groups, and PanO/NCA/MO with 10 order lists. I see advantages and disadvantages to both sides, to the point that when I'm entering a tournament I usually just pick whatever I feel will be the most fun. If there was a huge advantage to one particular style of play, I think the ITS participation stats would be skewed to that faction, in much the same way that a lot of the big 40K tournaments have been over the years. Instead it's a fairly even mix of a little of everything.
For the most part.. absolutely. What drew me in at first were the models and the complexity of the game due to other popular games like those made by GW who i believe are fun games but way too dialed back ruleswise. Now i have been playing since N3 came out, knew about it since N2 (had the rulebook and was so excited when i saw you could actually throw grenades but had no one to play against at that time). The biggest problem are rules that are seldomly used like Lean Out or Skills that include other Skills like Martial Arts that gives you Stealth, Susprise Attack and Courage.. try teaching that too a beginner (and i was a Warcor for a few years). The basics are easy enough, using orders, calculating the needed roll etc.. Army is a great tool since it already prints weapon profiles and the few common ammunition types are easy to remember. However once you move past basic rules the game gets exponentially more complex and i'm not really sure that's good. I've been playing for years now (though not at a great frequency) and i simply forget that one rule might incorporate others that would have been either benefical or not and it seems my opponents also do. Now rules are spread out across 3 books (main rulebook, Human Sphere, 3rd Offensive) and not everybody has a tablet with Internet on hand to look up the Wiki (and there almost is never a game where one of us doesn't have to check the Wiki). Honestly CB needs to think hard about a good housecleaning ruleswise. Take a long and good look at the entire rules system and throw out unnecessary ones, consolidate others and above all declutter some skills. CB has enjoyed a tremendous success since N3 but for N4 this is my main wish.. not more sectorials, campaigns and such but make the game more accessible and easy to learn.
@RogueJello well the issue is that CB has some "sacred cows" like Jammers and theit points cost formula that really shouldn't be sacred, but because of that they have to do this stuff.
I wouldn't say complex, but bloated. There are a lot of rare, redundant or barely differentiated weapons/skills/equipment that need not exist. The problem pretty much starts at the point weapon and equipment are given 40k style names like red fury and fatality, rather than rifle and markmanship. I'm at a point where I am already hoping for 4th edition to come and polish some of these off and rename and merge some weapon classes. Eg Spitfire to light machine gun, red fury to shock light machine gun, molotok to AP light machine gun and so on. Also to reverse the trend of adding shock to things that don't deserve it, like sniper rifles, heavy pistols and SMGs.
I quite like that shock is a little more common. I don't think smgs should have got AP as well, plus normal damage, and barely worse range bands.
