Two factions. We PanO folks simply switch the whiner seat with YJ from time to time :P About MAF - the real test will be seeing how it works now. I think it got a bit better, I'm simply not sure if "a bit better" will be good enough. We'll see.
So I have to ask, what makes you say that? But, it feels like this the 2nd and half time that CB kind of sidelined Morats. When N3 came around really the only major thing they got was the Morat rule. I am actually very disappointed that their seems to be such a strong correlation between OCF and the Morat units that are either introduced (Rodoks) or upgraded/new models (Suryats) when OCF dropped. I remember the fluff for the Legate positioned in such a way to supplant Morats as the non aspect alien bad asses. I really feel like army compositions aren't so much for play as they are for narrative at this point. And if that's the real case, even if only as a subconscious bias then I would argue all Morat players are at a disadvantage. This might have at least been part of the case but I wasn't looking hard up until 2 weeks ago. You can't however rationally dent that ever since N3, then Paradiso and now TO that Morat changes are incredibly limited in scope and competitiveness compared to at least 3/4 of the rest of the forces. So in truth I was considering coming back. I was making mock lists all week imagining improvements and compensating for point deficits. Given the lack of changes I am certain the direction of MAF is deliberate. We all threw such a huge fit, I mean for fucks sake I sent CB a box of Pastries and real life letter. Oznat with Sensor and universally linkable Raktorak at least made it through, sort of. So the oy thing I can imagine CB can do right at this point is adjust costs across the whole by next season devising that new "algorithm" I came up with calculating cost of units based on relationships between Attributes, Weapons, Equipment and Skills. MAF will undoubtedly become more of a horde force if CB keeps them as generic as they have but at least the game will finally be balanced. I many people don't like comparing Morats to Orcs but they were the Orcs of Infinity, they were our Klingons, our Honorable evil warriors and they've just been burnt too long. What should have made them defeatable was the Honor aspect- no markers no taking cover. What should have made them good for the game was being as viable as any other top tier force but a different way I.e. not needing markers or taking cover. I've never seen Morats really brute Force their way through anything and I've never seen them sit on something the whole game. I have seen them win through alot of luck. That does not feel good. For me, it would have felt fucking amazing to give FA2 and NBW to Sogs accompanied with Frenzy and a template. I would have liked more command actions out of Raktoraks. Something just as complimentary for Zerat and Kurgat as with Oznat. The fact the Morat rule was not addressed despite no marker state is shameful imo. I know CB doesn't really know what to do with MAF, they wanted Noble warriors that were't orcs and shot themselves in the foot because no knight, spartan or samurai story ended with them being dubbed Noble and memorable if they weren't absolutely better bad asses than most of the competition. They are almost always the best one v one, outnumbered, got an edge advantage in some way. We were sold a mediocre lie. I'll be leaving again. See you all in another 2 years.
Military Orders lost more profiles than MAF (the removal of every fusilier profile is a fundamental change, far in excess of MAF losing Bit). But you know, swings and roundabouts - they gained a great deal too.
I tried teaching, You and others stuck your fingers in your ears and went nah uh. Heres an idea, if you keep finding the units you are taking and the way you are using those units on the table too limiting, take the advice of others who have been able to establish some fairly strong means of play. Furthmore it doesnt even matter if that advice is coming from a different faction, because theres often enough similarity in design space that you can transfer concepts across faction. Hence my own advice that the Suryat+Vanguard link is going to be amazing, particularly with a 6th Vanguarg ML to pull ARO duty. How do I know this? because its so similar to the ORC+Regular link team or the ORC+Fusilier link team that its not funny and those are very very powerful cores. Infact lets do a side by side comparison shall we Heres a PanO list that shows off the biggest strengths of their recent changes and has proved in the last month to be incredibly powerful. Shock Army of Acontecimento ────────────────────────────────────────────────── GROUP 1 10 1 KNIGHT OF MONTESA Paramedic (MediKit) Boarding Shotgun, Chain-colt / Pistol, DA CC Weapon. (0 | 39) ORC HMG / Pistol, Knife. (2 | 44) REGULAR (Sapper) MULTI Sniper Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 22) REGULAR (Minelayer, Sensor) Combi Rifle, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 14) REGULAR (Minelayer, Sensor) Combi Rifle, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 14) REGULAR Paramedic (MediKit) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 12) REGULAR Paramedic (MediKit) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 12) REGULAR Lieutenant Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10) REGULAR Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10) AKAL COMMANDO Combi Rifle / Pistol, E/M CCW. (0 | 22) GROUP 2 6 MULEBOT Hacker (EVO Hacking Device) Electric Pulse. (0.5 | 25) TRAUMA-DOC Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 14) SIERRA DRONBOT HMG / Electric Pulse. (1 | 25) FUGAZI DRONBOT Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8) FUGAZI DRONBOT Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8) AKAL COMMANDO Boarding Shotgun / Pistol, E/M CCW. (0 | 21) 6 SWC | 300 Points Open in Infinity Army Strong active, good defensive with Nice non-SWC strikers able to reach out and touch those that hide from the HMG of doom during active. So what does a Morat list thats built the same look like? Morat Aggression Force ────────────────────────────────────────────────── GROUP 1 10 2 SURYAT Lieutenant HMG + TinBot A (Deflector L1) / Pistol, CCW. (2 | 45) MORAT (Forward Observer) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 15) MORAT (Forward Observer) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 15) MORAT Paramedic (MediKit) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 16) MORAT Paramedic (MediKit) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 16) MORAT Missile Launcher / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 19) DĀTURAZI Chain Rifle, Grenades, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, AP CCW. (0 | 14) DĀTURAZI Chain Rifle, Grenades, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, AP CCW. (0 | 14) Q-DRONE HMG / Electric Pulse. (1 | 26) MED-TECH OBSIDON MEDCHANOID Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 23) SLAVE DRONE Electric Pulse. (0 | 3) GROUP 2 5 1 E-DRONE Combi Rifle / Electric Pulse. (0.5 | 28) IKADRON (Baggage, Repeater) 2 Light Flamethrowers, Flash Pulse / Pistol, Electric Pulse. (0 | 9) IKADRON (Baggage, Repeater) 2 Light Flamethrowers, Flash Pulse / Pistol, Electric Pulse. (0 | 9) KRAKOT RENEGADE 2 Submachine Guns, Chest Mine / Pistol, Shock CC Weapon. (0 | 17) RASYAT Combi Rifle + E/Mitter, D-Charges, Eclipse Grenades / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 31) 5 SWC | 300 Points Open in Infinity Army This list has all the same core elements, elements who have slight flexes and differences in their strengths but not enough to seriously undermine the way the list as teh whole plays. its a strong defensive game, good attack pieces with great support and back up attack pieces. And hey, not useable without the recent changes too. And now that Ive taken teh time to highlight this, I am totally eagerly awaiting the "Nuh-uh morats are bad M'kay"
Just because people gave evidence why you were wrong doesn't mean people were ignoring you. Your idea of the way the game is played is very skewed on your island.
So you agree that you came in here, unrequested, to tell us that we're all wrong and then show off how amazing you are by dropping some "knowledge" on us. Sorry that we elected to have our own opinions instead of bowing down in worship of your clearly greater intellect.
Yup about what I expected. All that effort and advice and attempt to help is just wasted effort. Hey mate, IT'S NOT YOUR LIST
Evidently it is though, because my list isn't your list - the whole crux of your soapbox rant. I will now also repost my original contribution to this thread - whereby I acknowledge the objectively positive changes to MAF, while explaining why they feel lacklustre and why we, as players, are upset. You probably didn't bother to read it. It is an emotional reaction. You can't really "teach" my feelings to be different. So again, please stop being intentionally antagonistic by coming in and telling us we have no right to feel our own feelings because they aren't "justifiable".
The problem is your reasoning is "CB must be supported, ergo the Rodok KHD *must* be more useful than Bit." Not "The Rodok KHD is more useful than Bit for mechanical reasons x, y, and x." So your argument is gonna fall flat for us.
Actually I think the list you've posted highlights a lot of what can sometimes make MAF challenging to play. There are a lot of elements that are fundamentally very similar to other factions but maybe just a little more expensive but also just a little worse. Nothing massive; an extra point or two, maybe 1pt lower BS or something. But it adds up across an entire force - in your sample lists pretty visibly in the two akal commandos vs one rasyat, and meanwhile the core link is trying to equate a Suryat to an ORC and a poor vanguard missile to a Sapper Sniper. You compensate for it with some of the few unique or standout models - Combined Army REM support especially stands above basically every human faction off the back of Ikadrons, E-Drones and Q-Drones, and MAF warbands are all good models, and even having warbands (and smoke, and melee) is actually a pretty unique value proposition if you're a player coming from PanO (which I was when I picked up MAF). I don't think I'd play exactly the list you posted but I'm tinkering around with something a little similar. I expect it'll have a place, and I'll try it out after I've run a bit with some of the more unique & shiny stuff.
Also it's worth noting that some PanO trolls were already going around on FB telling the combined army players that Morats deserved a nerf because their players have a bad attitude and don't run Morats the right way.
It's going to take CB more than 2 years to fix Morats, the development cycle is probably something like 4-6 years at my guess. How about you take a 4 year break instead?
Agreed entirely. And that second part is what Im trying to stress when I talk about flexing their strengths. for example, they cant run 2 Akals, but what they can do is take the Rasyat which is one of the best AD units in the game and leverage that strength to adjust for their other weaknesses. And they dont get the Montessa, but 3 Warbadns 2 of which are CC focues and one thats packing B4 Shock/AP is a really good and powerful rushing force, particularly spread across 2 groups. Ultimately I love how the MAF goes together now Suryat+Vanguard and then ballrt solo elements like above Raicho+Hunting party (which we've discussed before) And Im very keen to look at a Rodok+Sogarat list EDIT: On a side note, one of the only reasons I havent got into Morats myself yet is that they very much feel like theyd play like my PanO. And I kinda already own that playstyle so...yeah
And while were looking at interesting Cores. Why dont we look at Raktoraks Have you ever wanted Scoring and a B5 8-24 +3 shock weaponry in your Daturazi Core? BECAUSE YOU GET ONE!! What about a way of running a Yaogat or two as a Core but find yourself not wanting to fork out the 30 pts for link filler? 22 PT SCORING SHOTGUNS YAY Or maybe you just wanted to run one in a Hungry team and face hug people with explosions while shooting them to death with a high burst very cheap link? Guess what, RAKTORAK Seriously though Morat Aggression Force ────────────────────────────────────────────────── 5 4 DĀTURAZI Chain Rifle, Grenades, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, AP CCW. (0 | 14) DĀTURAZI Chain Rifle, Grenades, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, AP CCW. (0 | 14) DĀTURAZI Chain Rifle, Grenades, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, AP CCW. (0 | 14) DĀTURAZI Chain Rifle, Grenades, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, AP CCW. (0 | 14) RAKTORAK Red Fury / Pistol, Knife. (1 | 26) 1 SWC | 82 Points Open in Infinity Army Morat Aggression Force ────────────────────────────────────────────────── 5 YAOGAT MULTI Sniper Rifle / Pistol, CCW. (1.5 | 34) YAOGAT (Number 2) Boarding Shotgun, Grenades / Pistol, CCW. (0 | 28) RAKTORAK Vulkan Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 22) RAKTORAK Vulkan Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 22) RAKTORAK Vulkan Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 22) 1.5 SWC | 128 Points Open in Infinity Army Morat Aggression Force ────────────────────────────────────────────────── 2 3 4 GAKI AP CCW. (0 | 4) GAKI AP CCW. (0 | 4) GAKI AP CCW. (0 | 4) RAKTORAK Red Fury / Pistol, Knife. (1 | 26) OZNAT Vulkan Shotgun, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 20) 1 SWC | 58 Points Open in Infinity Army
